Men or Elves? - Tolkien Forums

mouth of sauron

Samwise Gamgee - rank 9

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This question is seldom found unseen on Tolkien sites so i would advise it for the Experienced Lore forum. Also I am sure some of you are now waiting for some genuine lore debates, that have been absent from TF for some time. Were Orcs Men of Elves? Here is a quote from The Silmarillion suggesting they were the latter: "But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known for certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the councels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Erresae, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. ...And deep in their hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in faer, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Iluvatar." (The Silmarillion, Of the coming of Elves) Here is a quote however from Unfinished Tales, suggesting the exact opposite, suggesting that Men were indeed the source of the vile race of Orcs: "Doubtless Morgoth, since he can make no living thing, bred Orcs from various kinds of Men, but the Druedain must have escaped his shadow, for their laughter and the laughter of Orcs are as different as is the Light of Aman from the Darkness of Angband." (Unfinished tales, Druedain) Two contradicting quotes hither. Anyone else care to shed some light on this? -- Edited by mouthofsauron111 at 15:12, 2006-05-08 __________________ My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....

The Might

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Ah yes! Good discussion. Well, dear mouthofsauron, I am sorry to tell you this but there is no clear answer to your question. Actually as you will see, there actually are even more possibilities for the origins of the orcs. And here they are:

Firstly, the orcs could be creatures "made from the earth"
According to the oldest theory proposed by Tolkien presented in The Fall of Gondolin, from The Book of Lost Tales, Orcs were made of stone and slime through the sorcery of Morgoth ("bred from the heats and slimes of the earth" — The Book of Lost Tales, Vol. 2).

An other possibility, and probably the best know one is that of the corrupted elves.
As we know of course, Melkor was not able to create, but only to corrupt. And this is the idea this theory is based on. It seems that some of the first Elves that awoke at Cuivienen were captured by some strange cretures of legend, the Rider and the Hunter, and where then somehow corrupted by Melkor to create the orcs.

A little known, but still possible theory is that of some of the orcs beeing fallen Maiar.
There are hints in the History of Middle-earth series of books, (especially in Morgoth's Ring in the section "Myths Transformed"), that some Orc leaders, such as the First Age's Boldog, or the Great Goblin encountered by Bilbo and the Dwarves, may in fact have been fallen Maiar which had taken Orc form:

"Some of these things may have been delusions and phantoms but some were no doubt shapes taken by the servants of Melkor, mocking and degrading the very forms of the children. For Melkor had in his service great numbers of Maiar, who had the power, as their Master, of taking visible and tangible shape in Arda." (Morgoth's Ring, "Myths transformed", text X)

"Boldog (…) is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War. But it is possible that Boldog was not a personal name, and either a title, or else the name of a kind of creature: the Orc-formed Maiar, only less formidable than the Balrogs" (Author's footnote to the text X)

" Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some great as Sauron, or less as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive Orcs." (Author's note to text)
So as we see, there are quite good quotes about the Orcs beeing Maiar, at least some of them.

They could of course had been some cross-breds together with Men, as already suggested in one of your quotes.
The fierce Orcs known as Uruk-hai were created in this way. The process was later repeated during the War of the Ring by Saruman, enabling him to make his own Uruks.
"There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile. (Morgoth's Ring, "Myths Transformed" - Text X)"
And here comes some very interesting information about the changing in the Master's thinking:
Tolkien was happy at a certain moment with the idea of the Orcs beeing in the beginning Elves but later quotes of his indicate, according to Christopher Tolkien in Morgoth's Ring ("Myths Transformed, text X"), that he began to feel uncomfortable with this theory. The question of Orc origin may have been one of the problems Tolkien tried to solve by completely changing the cosmology and prehistory of Arda.
By changing the time of the creation of Men to the same period with that of the creation of Elves, he possibly allowed for Men to be the origin of Orcs all along. Tolkien died before he could complete this change of the cosmology, however, so the Elf origin was adopted in the published version of The Silmarillion.

And lastly, there is a theory saying that orcs could have been some beasts, animals in the beginning, that were somehow turned into orcs by Melkor. ANd of course, by turned into I mean corrupted, not created.

"The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape (…)." ('Morgoth's Ring', "Myths transformed", text VIII')

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Glorfindel

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Interesting points there The Might. And yes an interesteing discussion.

Personally I favour Orcs being twisted Elves, the two of which we know are the bitterest enemies. It appears however what with Tolkiens unquiet of the idear and Christipher Tolkiens editing that the answer could be that of many. Perhaps we should look to Tolkiens first idear to what Orcs really were for that would seem the most logical route.

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The Might

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well, glorfindel, the problem is, we will never know what his idea in that matter really was as he let many things there unfinished, an we cannot be sure.
And I doubt we can or should be more or less in favour of one of these theories, as they are all backed up by more or less good quotes, and they all make more or less sense, so you, as Tolkien fan, can't say which is more or less probable as the matter was never cleared.
And if you really want to fry an answer, never look at the beginning, look at the end. And the end seems to point towards the men. still, that doesn't necessarily mean that Orcs come from Men.

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mouth of sauron

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Perhaps we could look at which theory has the most quotes backing it??? __________________ My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....

Elendil the Tall

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mouthofsauron, the only problem with this approach would be the timing in which Tolkien conceived each of the theories. It is not inconceivable that a theory that predates another by 30 years would have a significantly larger number of quote supporting it. This, however, does nothing to imply which theory Tolkien was leaning towards as the final solution. __________________

mouth of sauron

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Well personally I go for the Elves. They are far more likely becuase if they were men then what would he be fighting the Valar with in the War of the Powers? Elves had only just come so he would be fighting the host of the valar with about 3-4 Balrogs and Sauron and a few creatures, not alot against all the Valar and Maiar of Ea!

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The Might

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ummm...I can't follow you idea are you perhaps trying to say there were to few men in Beleriand to be turned into orcs? because that is wrong. there were plenty of men in Beleriand and many came from the East. also we don't really know how far Melkor's influence spread into the East. __________________ Honor, Freedom, Fatherland

mouth of sauron

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No the War of Powers - not the War of Wrath. Your confusing the two.

Te War of powers is the second great war btw Valar and Melkor. Elves had only jsut come in the east of ME and Men were not created yet.

Therefore Morgoth would have no orcs to fight with. However if Orcs were Elves he would just be in time for a sizable army for he knew of the Elves before any other Valar.

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The Might

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well, yes, of course that makes sense as that is theory presented all over the Silmarillion. that orcs were elves. BUT keep in mind, the Sil was also never published by Tolkien, so it was never a published theory. and of the unpublished theories the one about men was still the later one. __________________ Honor, Freedom, Fatherland

Elendil the Tall

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mouthofsauron, I was only commenting on your supposition that the prevailing theory should be defined by the number of quotes provided in Tolkien's works. However, this is not necessarily the case, due to the amount of time Tolkien had with which to develop these theories.

Since Elves were but new to the world, I do not see how Melkor would have been able to create this "sizeable army" which you propose he had. Such an utter perversion as the (proposed) corruption of the Quendi into Orcs would not be a slow one (in most cases), due to the great spirit of the Elves. Those Elves that Morgoth captured during the First Age that we see were still Elves after many years imprisioned by him.

No matter how you judge Tolkien's views on the matter, it cannot in the end be proven conclusive, since Tolkien himself was in the process of revisiting the myth when he passed. All mentions of Orcish origns were published after his death, and so we cannot know which he would have chosen to include in the end.

And as a sidenote, I think that this is exactly the sort of topic that should be included in the Experienced Fanatics Forum, for the precise reason that it is unclear. The ambiguity of the topic necessitates debate, which can only be comprehensively done by those with extensive knowledge of Tolkien's world, whereas most other topics have a cut-and-dry answer, leaving much less (although not always no) room for debate.

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The Might

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my point exactly. a lot of debate...but not easy to find an answer. __________________ Honor, Freedom, Fatherland

mouth of sauron

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Should we therefore dismiss the Idear straight away? Can any of you give some alternative reasons why you think so and so race was turned into orcs, like I did last post about the Elves? __________________ My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....

The Might

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well, ok.
I won't let the discussion so easy.
anyway, I would like to support the quote about Maiar as orcs.
we know that Melkor corrupted many Maiar to hs cause, and that they existed before the elves did.
so that could place the birth of some orcs even earlier.
I would say this is a possibility because there are indeed some outstanding orc leaders that do seem to possess greater powers then the others.
That is why I think some orc leaders of the first age could have been corrupted Maiar.
as proof:
There are hints in the History of Middle-earth series of books, (especially in Morgoth's Ring in the section "Myths Transformed"), that some Orc leaders, such as the First Age's Boldog, or the Great Goblin encountered by Bilbo and the Dwarves, may in fact have been fallen Maiar which had taken Orc form:

"Some of these things may have been delusions and phantoms but some were no doubt shapes taken by the servants of Melkor, mocking and degrading the very forms of the children. For Melkor had in his service great numbers of Maiar, who had the power, as their Master, of taking visible and tangible shape in Arda." (Morgoth's Ring, "Myths transformed", text X)

"Boldog (…) is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War. But it is possible that Boldog was not a personal name, and either a title, or else the name of a kind of creature: the Orc-formed Maiar, only less formidable than the Balrogs" (Author's footnote to the text X)

" Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some great as Sauron, or less as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive Orcs." (Author's note to text)

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mouth of sauron

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Well yes there quotes but we know that there are quotes supporting all theories. Could you give an analogy as to why you think Orcs were Maiar? Something like I did with the Elves and the War of Powers. __________________ My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....

Elendil the Tall

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mouthofsauron, you yourself have not provided an analogy, merely a possible situation in which your theory could convceivably have merit. However, since you ask for a similar sort of "proof" (and I use this in the loosest sense of the term) as to why the Maiar may have been Orcs, I will provide one by merely using your own.

You say that Elves, being but newly awoken, had woken just in time for Melkor to create a sizeable army. As I have said above, I do not agree that the amount of time between the awakening of the Elves and the War of the Powers was sufficient time for Melkor to corrupt the Elves. As an example, Gwindor of Nargothrond had been imprisionned by Melkor for approximately 20 years (from Nirnaeth Arnoediad to Beleg's death). At the end of this period, he was "but a bent and fearful shadow of his former shape" (Sil, The Tale of the Children of Hurin). However, he was not even approaching the sort of transformation that would be required to twist an Elf into an Orc. Such a transformation that would require a corruption of both the hroa and the fea, but Gwindor's fea had shown relatively no corruption, and his hroa, although grown old, was certainly not approaching that of an Orc.

However, Melkor would have had more than sufficient time to corrupt some of the Maiar under his service to the level of Orcs, having begun to seduce them during the Music, providing him with the beginnings of the army that you seem to be quick to attribute to corrupted Elves.

(Note: I don't necessarily believe either the theory that I nor mouthofsauron presented, in fact, I myself am unsure as to which theory seems to fit best into both Tolkien's existing mythology, as well as his latest writings before his death)

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mouth of sauron

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Your statment Elendil has a fatal flaw - The level of corruption to make Orcs could have been much higher than to corrupt Gwindor. He may for instance have only been exposed to a few hours of torture a day. Orcs may have been battered and tortured all day long, by far quickening the process, even though its desired result was greater than the latter.

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Lord Lórien

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Orc origins is an idea that Tolkien played with quite a bit. I find it likely that Orc origins are both Men and Elves. TM points out others like fallen Maia (another possibility) and in Tolkien's earliest writings Orcs came from slime and rocks (but this concept Tolkien abandoned, as it's clear Orcs can reproduce just like Men or Elves). Anyway here's the argument for both, and I find it extremely likely that Orcs are from both origins.

First we'll start with the Elves. As MoS quotes The Silmarillion, but this isn't too much of a reliable source. Firstly, Tolkien never got to finish it and CT pieced together some things. Secondly, this is according to the wise of "Eressea." And as Tolkien tells us in Letter 153 with Treebeard:
Treebeard is a character in my story not me; though he has a great memory and some earthly wisdom, he is not one of the wise and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand.
So, not all characters and what they believe in Tolkien's story is entirely accurate. In the quote from the first post, Orcs being tortured Elves is what is held belief by the "Wise of Eressea," therefor you can question the accuracy. However, what Tolkien does tells us, as the omniscient narrator:
It remains therefore terribly possible there was an Elvish strain in the Orcs. These may then even have been mated with beasts (sterile!) - and later Men. Their life-span would be diminished. And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End.~Morgoth's Ring: Text VIII

As far as Men, TM has explained and it can be found throughout Text X of Morgoth's Ring. Being the latest of Tolkien's thoughts, some will say that Orcs origin were from Men since those were his last thoughts. But, I think that it's possible Orcs came from both, as well as some being fallen Maia taking an Orc form. It really comes down to what you want to believe. For this is an idea that Tolkien changed and played with several times.

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mouth of sauron

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A very inlightening post there Boromir. And yes i agree. Orcs characteristics seem so diverse compared to men/elves/dwarves that I think it highly likely that they did have different origins amoung species. Never thought of that. Lets see what 'The Might' thinks... __________________ My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....

The Might

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good to see you again Boromir88, and I hope to see you much more often from now on.
as I said, I still think that the question is not entirely clear as Tolkien never cleared the matter.
But I also don't think that the creation of orcs from slime or from lesser beasts is very likely, so I too must agree with the fact that Elves and Men are the best possibilities.
And I think Boromir88 provided a very good quote on the matter.
So I too agree with the opinion he presents, only adding that I stongly believe that some of the greater Orcs, such as leaders were corrupted Maia.

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Fingolfin

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To toss a small wrench into things here, I would dispute the thought that some Orcs were corrupted maiar. Not that it 'couldn't' happen, as there is much that we do not know, but looking at the following thoughts:

1. Elves were immortal and thus if some of the very early Elves were taken and corrupted they would likely have kept that immortal nature in themselves and lived through the ages were they not killed.

2. Look at the early Elves - Feanor, Fingolfin .. Feanor who battled several balrogs, Fingolfin who challenged Morgoth .. these were no run of the mill warriors (albeit heroic figures within the Elf race) but certainly a corrupted Elf turned Orc could have been a fell warrior that could have the appearance in deeds of someone/something as powerful as a maiar.

3. Tolkien doesn't specifically mention this but he does focus on other Maia which are highlighted of note - Gothmog, Thuringwethil etc and if there was a Maia Orc on the battlefield I would think he would have made a note of it, especially of its 'fall'.

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The Might

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"Some of these things may have been delusions and phantoms but some were no doubt shapes taken by the servants of Melkor, mocking and degrading the very forms of the children. For Melkor had in his service great numbers of Maiar, who had the power, as their Master, of taking visible and tangible shape in Arda." (Morgoth's Ring, "Myths transformed", text X)

"Boldog (…) is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War. But it is possible that Boldog was not a personal name, and either a title, or else the name of a kind of creature: the Orc-formed Maiar, only less formidable than the Balrogs" (Author's footnote to the text X)

" Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some great as Sauron, or less as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive Orcs." (Author's note to text)

just thinking to refresh the quotes on that topic.
Now, firstly, indeed you are correct, but you must remember that Maiar were also immortal, and were also less bound to Arda then Elves.
Indeed, it is true, Elves were of great power, but by mockering the Elves, Melkor was never able to create a better or even equal version of them.
As an example I'll use the trolls.
Trolls are said to have been made in mockery of Ents.
Now, Treebeard says clearly that Ents were stronger.
So it is clear that by making a mockery of something Melkor created something he could control, but that was less strong then before.
Melkor had to weaken both the fea and the hroa of Elves to turn them into Orcs, and that is why there power decreased.
And, about the last point I do agree with you, but it could be that simply Tolkien never really cleared the matter of the origin of Orcs, and that is maybe why he also never really cleared the matter of the Maiar-Orcs.

The problem for your theory are the direct quotes that Tolkien gives.
Now I do agree with you, at least partially on the points you posted.
But, Tolkien himself offers Orcs as a possibility.

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Anduril

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I'm currently re-reading LOTR, and I could swear there was a passage, or at least a mentioning that Orcs were corrupted elves, which to me would explain the genuine hatred each was felt for each other. It may have been in The Silmarillion, but I know I read it somewhere. If I come across it, I'll post the passage.

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The Might

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could very well be, but still, unfortunately no quote can prove with certainty which of the theories is correct __________________ Honor, Freedom, Fatherland

Anduril

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Then without further proof it is for all of us to decide what is most logical. I myself can see a physical likeness between Elves and Orcs (no disrespect to all you elves out there), so I can believe it more readily that Orcs are not descended from men. Also for the story's sake it makes more sense to say Orcs were Elves, thus giving Orcs a more tainted appearance to the reader. I don't know what kind of torment that must be endured to come to that level of corruption, but IMO men would probably not survive it, or at least be broken to the point of uselessness.

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The Might

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it is not a question of logical or probable or more likely or more plausable
it's something we simply don't know and never will know
of course some could be seen as perhaps a better option, but then again that could be very far away from the truth for all we know...
so as far as I am concerned I view all theories as plausable and likely
and I don't see why Orcs couldn't have had different sources in their beginning

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Anduril

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Anduril wrote:

I'm currently re-reading LOTR, and I could swear there was a passage, or at least a mentioning that Orcs were corrupted elves, which to me would explain the genuine hatred each was felt for each other. It may have been in The Silmarillion, but I know I read it somewhere. If I come across it, I'll post the passage.

Okay, I misunderstood. According to Treebeard, Trolls were created as a counterpart to ents, and Orcs were created as a counterpart to elves, but not necessarily from elves.

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Mandos

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I don't think it has been mentioned but the Silmarillion does not only speculate about this it's there in the timeline that they don't have human origin. When Morgoth comes to Angband for the first time it says Orcs have been bred long before, and also that Orcs enter Beleriand while he is still captive. On the other hand the Secondborn awake at the first rise of the Sun (and the fall of the Trees and escape of Morgoth). It also makes sense from the LoTR point of view that they have not been conditioned to deal with the Sun if they are older than it (otherwise surely Morgoth would have bred that trait into them like Saruman did).

As for them being Elves I think there a symmetry in that Elves also have some share in Evil instead of being the pure race alone (and it explains the special hatred for Orcs despite them not sharing habitats like dwarves). Feanorians are not evil as per Tolkien's definition (association with Morgoth) since they fight him. They are just compelled to evil acts by their oath. I don't believe it would take much to corrupt those Dark Elves that believed Morgoth's rumors and fled at the first sight of Orome after their awakening (and had never seen the West either). They would be "darker" than wood elves.

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The Might

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Well, I agree those are some good points in favor of the Elves as Orcs theory, but let us not forget others exist as well, some developed later on Welcome to the Forums btw! __________________ Honor, Freedom, Fatherland

mouth of sauron

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Some good points brought up there. Welcome to the forums also. __________________ My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....

Galin

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Tolkien tinkered with timelines as well as other ideas for orc-origins, as stated. I think the Orc-formed Maiar provide (or could have provided) a decent enough way of getting some 'Orcs' in early --with Men being the main source of 'later' more numerous Orcs. Edit: Oh and welcome Galin -- Edited by Galin at 20:39, 2007-03-08 __________________

Mandos

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Orcs are a procreating species. The only Maiar who procreates is Melian, and she has to assume mortal form for that. I do not believe any Maiar of Morgoth would sacrifice immortality for that (sacrifice not being in their vocabulary, rather selfishness).
Orcs also have night-vision unlike humans but like Elves. Elves appear to be more willing to be subject to some Power and assume their attributes than humans. Even those Elves not travellingWest have a longing to do so (like Legolas). On the other hand Easterlings/Haradrim/Numeroneans are only allies of Morgoth/Sauron not subjects. At most they worship them, but even that is not dependable (like the oath-breakers also breaking with Sauron). The only real subjects are the Nazgul and the Mouth, both with much extended lives. The destiny of Elves is in the World so it's more natural for them to align with its rulers.

-- Edited by Mandos at 12:34, 2007-03-09

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Galin

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Orc-formed Maiar appear in at least three essays where Tolkien is considering Orc-origins -- in other words, this idea seems 'steadier' than even whether Elves or Men (or beasts) were to be the 'main stock'. Note that Tolkien himself refers to Melian here, when Maiar becoming Orcs is under consideration...

'The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force.' JRRT Myths Transformed VIII

Men were easier to sway to the designs of Morgoth (or Sauron) than Elves. Also, Men could be made to mate with Orcs incidentally (the Half-orcs of The Lord of the Rings for example). Anyway, note Tolkien here on the nature and behaviour of Men and Orcs (from the 'Orcs from Men' essay).

'This view of the origin of Orcs thus meets with difficulties of chronology. But though Men may take comfort in this, the theory remains nonetheless the most probable. It accords with all that is known of Melkor, and of the nature and behaviour of Orcs -- and of Men.' JRRT Myths Transformed X

Tolkien had problems in general with ideas about Orcs...

'It seems clear (...) that though Melkor could utterly corrupt and ruin individuals, it is not possible to contemplate his absolute perversion of a whole people, or group of peoples, and his making that state heritable [added later: this latter must (if a fact) be an act of Eru]

In that case Elves, as a source, are very unlikely. And are Orcs 'immortal' in the Elvish sense? Or Trolls...' JRRT Myths Transformed VIII

Another issues concerns the puppet-like servitude of some Orcs. Keeping in mind the idea of servitude to a central will that reduced some orcs almost to an ant-like life, the notion that Orcs could be said to be absorbed into a 'puppet-like' existence, note what Tolkien writes about Elves and Dwarves here, in contrast to Men...

'Other originally independent creatures, and Men among them (but not Elves or Dwarves), could also be reduced to a like condition. (...) But Men could (and can still) be reduced to such a condition...' JRRT, Morgoth's Ring

Orcs from Men (including Maiar-orcs) indeed appears to be Tolkien's 'last' idea on the matter, though as Christopher Tolkien points out, the matter is not so easy (see Morgoth's Ring for full context)

-- Edited by Galin at 14:15, 2007-03-09

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Mandos

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You seem to be somewhat selective in your quoting. The summary/conclusion for most of what you quote is that Orcs are talking beasts with possibly an Elvish strain.
http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?The__Origin__of__Orcs
He is not mentioning any Maiar, only the least of them. And these would have required a body to occupy as they would be unable to create one. Then he refers to that Eru would not have provided a body.
His objection to elves, that the state is heritable is not necessarily strong as the Elves did separate into various races. The so-called corruption could also be culturally induced, the orcs Frodo meet in Mordor have an almost irrational fear for a giant elf-warrior and the orcs in Rohan appear to believe men eat orcs. And he mentions that worship also brings corruption, that could be another cultural conditioning.
(As for the beast theory I don't credit it much, at least one orc in Rohan was clever enough to figure out what their masters actually wanted of the hobbits despite not being told, and they also know Common Speech.)

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Galin

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Mandos wrote: 'You seem to be somewhat selective in your quoting. The summary/conclusion for most of what you quote is that Orcs are talking beasts with possibly an Elvish strain.'

My point is that Orc-formed Maiar are part of all three essays, no matter each conclusion of the three...

... and as you brought up Melian, indeed I 'selected' that quote on purpose

In my previous post two quotes are from VIII (in which Tolkien considers beasts) -- and two are from X, the 'Orcs from Men' essay -- the last quote is from a note in relation to X anyway.

Mandos wrote: 'He is not mentioning any Maiar, only the least of them. And these would have required a body to occupy as they would be unable to create one. Then he refers to that Eru would not have provided a body.'

The least of the Maiar are still Maiar. And Tolkien writes 'by practising when embodied...' so yes they could have bodies. What you seem to be referring to at the end there is about the Elvish word fea rather, not the bodies of the Maiar-orcs; this part I'm guessing...

'But again -- would Eru provide fear for such creatures? for the Eagles etc. perhaps. But not for Orcs.' The context of the whole essay better explains this statement, but Maiar already have fear in any case (the plural of fea, not English 'fear' of course).

Mandos wrote: 'His objection to elves, that the state is heritable is not necessarily strong as the Elves did separate into various races. The so-called corruption could also be culturally induced, the orcs Frodo meet in Mordor have an almost irrational fear for a giant elf-warrior and the orcs in Rohan appear to believe men eat orcs. And he mentions that worship also brings corruption, that could be another cultural conditioning.'

You're entitled to that opinion, but anyway, what I noted with that quote is a problem the Author himself considered when contemplating Orc-origins. With respect to the heritable issue it seemingly concerns 'peoples' -- though I find it notable that the very next thing Tolkien writes after this 'heritable issue' is that Elves are 'very unlikely'.

Mandos wrote: '(As for the beast theory I don't credit it much, at least one orc in Rohan was clever enough to figure out what their masters actually wanted of the hobbits despite not being told, and they also know Common Speech.)'

I'm not championing the beast theory either, but I do think the Maiar idea was going to be part of whatever Tolkien decided, based on the fact that the Maiar-orcs appear in essays VIII, IX, X; all these essays concering Orc-origins.

Galin

-- Edited by Galin on Friday 17th of April 2009 11:19:39 AM

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Mandos

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The conclusion doesn't matter, my point is that Orc-formed Maiar are part of all three essays, no matter each conclusion of the three...

And since they are not in the conclusion they were also rejected.

Mandos wrote: 'He is not mentioning any Maiar, only the least of them. And these would have required a body to occupy as they would be unable to create one. Then he refers to that Eru would not have provided a body.'

The least of the Maiar are still Maiar. And Tolkien writes 'by practising when embodied...' so yes they could have bodies. What you seem to be referring to at the end there is about the Elvish word fea rather, not the bodies of the Maiar-orcs; this part I'm guessing...

'But again -- would Eru provide fear for such creatures? for the Eagles etc. perhaps. But not for Orcs.' The context of the whole essay better explains this statement, but Maiar already have fear in any case (the plural of fea, not English 'fear' of course).

Yes, so it must from the context refer to their bodies since Maiar already have fear. I see it as referring to such Maiar as the leader of the wolves attacking the Fellowship, or the barrow-wight. Both must have an existing body (dead or alive) to occupy. Only greater Maiar can create a body for themselves. There is no mention of other evil Maiar than the Balrogs or wolf-shaped/bat-shaped Maiar anywhere that I know of. If they could take any form at will surely there would be some more variety.

You're entitled to that opinion, but anyway, what I noted with that quote is a problem the Author himself considered when contemplating Orc-origins. With respect to the heritable issue it seemingly concerns 'peoples' -- though I find it notable that the very next thing Tolkien writes after this 'heritable issue' is that Elves are 'very unlikely'.

Well if you want to go into that one reason for rejecting Elves seems to be that they are immortal. But that is rejected is the last paragraph, which seems to support the Elf-theory and contradict his earlier statement about the corruption being heritable only. (My impression of it in general is that Tolkien seems to have an emotional aversion to Elves as Orcs which is not borne out of the logic of his world, so he seeks to find somewhat far-fetched alternatives instead. If corruption of a group of people is difficult to contemplate, why is the corruption of an animal species not. And he also contradicts this inheritance issue by implying trolls have such an inherited corruption.)

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Galin

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Mandos wrote: And since they [the Maiar] are not in the conclusion they were also rejected.

First (and again) Maiar-orcs appear in all three essays, not just VIII. Second, I find no great reason to think the notion is rejected specifically in VIII. The idea appears to be that these Maiar-orcs are only part of the scenario and do not solve the question of the main source of Orcs; they exist as a kind of 'Orc' along with the others.

Mandos wrote: Yes, so it must from the context refer to their bodies since Maiar already have fear.

Tolkien specifically said the Maiar-orcs could have bodies before the comment under question -- which statement is not about Eru providing (or not) any such bodies, but whether Eru will, or will not, provide fear for something. It appears under (4) which begins 'What of talking beasts and birds with reasoning and speech?' and so this remark about fear exists within a larger context, which indeed includes the 'Eagles etc.' of course.

Mandos wrote: (...) Only greater Maiar can create a body for themselves. There is no mention of other evil Maiar than the Balrogs or wolf-shaped/bat-shaped Maiar anywhere that I know of. If they could take any form at will surely there would be some more variety.

Tolkien wrote otherwise in essay VIII however. Not only did he say the Maiar-orcs could be embodied but...

'Only the Valar and Maiar are intelligences that can assume forms of Arda at will' (...) In any case is it likely or possible that even the least of the Maiar would become Orcs? Yes: both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno.' JRRT essay VIII

Or (from another source) note 4 to essay VIII: 'As the Valar would robe themselves like the children, many of the Maiar robed themselves like other lesser living things, as trees, flowers, beasts. (Huan).' JRRT

Mandos wrote: Well if you want to go into that one reason for rejecting Elves seems to be that they are immortal.

The issue I raised was the seeming 'likelihood of heritabilty' with Elves. I didn't say anything about the immortal issue (yet), it just happened to be included in the part I quoted, as I didn't want it to seem as if the quote ended after the sentence that Elves are very unlikely. The distinction I drew is merely that Tolkien seemed (because of the text) to think heritability was 'extra unlikely' with Elves.

That's as far as I ever went with that point

Galin

-- Edited by Galin at 06:57, 2007-03-11

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Mandos

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First (and again) Maiar-orcs appear in all three essays, not just VIII. Second, I find no great reason to think the notion is rejected specifically in VIII. The idea appears to be that these Maiar-orcs are only part of the scenario and do not solve the question of the main source of Orcs; they exist as a kind of 'Orc' along with the others.

Well the Elf-theory is referred to three times or more in the Silmarillion and that I regards as more "official" than some unpublished speculations so that is not convincing.

Tolkien specifically said the Maiar-orcs could have bodies before the comment under question -- which statement is not about Eru providing (or not) any such bodies, but whether Eru will, or will not, provide fear for something. It appears under (4) which begins 'What of talking beasts and birds with reasoning and speech?' and so this remark about fear exists within a larger context, which indeed includes the 'Eagles etc.' of course.

I re-read and it appears you might be correct, it's more consistent than I thought and the conclusion leads to the beast-Elves. The objection to Maiar appears to be that Sorontar has descendants and can therefore not be Maia, the following paragraph about Maiar seems more like a digression.

'Only the Valar and Maiar are intelligences that can assume forms of Arda at will' (...) In any case is it likely or possible that even the least of the Maiar would become Orcs? Yes: both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno.' JRRT essay VIII
Or (from another source) note 4 to essay VIII: 'As the Valar would robe themselves like the children, many of the Maiar robed themselves like other lesser living things, as trees, flowers, beasts. (Huan).' JRRT

Yes apparently Tolkien thought that was possible for evil Maiar before the fall of Utumno but presumably not later. But for the reproduction that is not supported, regarding Melian she appears to be a "higher" Maia like Sauron unlike those considered here. And she still required a mortal counterpart for reproduction, others like Bombadill don't have descendants. The offspring of Melian is completely Elven (not having any "choice" in the matter).

Mandos wrote: Well if you want to go into that one reason for rejecting Elves seems to be that they are immortal.

The issue I raised was the seeming 'likelihood of heritabilty' with Elves. I didn't say anything about the immortal issue (yet), it just happened to be included in the part I quoted, as I didn't want it to seem as if the quote ended after the sentence that Elves are very unlikely. The distinction I drew is merely that Tolkien seemed (because of the text) to think heritability was 'extra unlikely' with Elves.

I did not refer to immortality either but your reference to the heritability, which is refuted towards the end for Elves as an issue because religion etc. can also corrupt. (Immortality was also refuted in the same paragraph which reinforces that it refers to the previous Elf-speculation.) Also the issue of a whole people (work of Eru) being corrupted is also refuted at the end. So in the conclusion an Elf strain is included as a possibility. (The earlier reference to Elves to me is only that they are a remaining hypothesis after Men and dwarves have been rejected.)

It isn't evident why pure Elves are rejected at the end in favor of beast-Elves, but it seems because of the perceived robotic servitude of Orcs. However it seems at least to me Orcs also have a large measure of free will and are kept in check by habit, propaganda and culture. Black Numeroneans would be the equivalent, only for Orcs a longer period and in different conditions. If the will of Orcs is just an extension of Morgoth they would find independent action difficult when he left Arda, however they for example formed independent societies in the Misty Mountains after the fall of Angband.

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Galin

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Mandos wrote:Well the Elf-theory is referred to three times or more in the Silmarillion and that I regards as more "official" than some unpublished speculations so that is not convincing.

However I'm not simply counting references here: the point is that in three seperate variant origins written by JRR Tolkien, that is, in three variant examples with variant conclusions, Orc-formed Maiar are considered in each.

Mandos wrote: I re-read and it appears you might be correct, it's more consistent than I thought and the conclusion leads to the beast-Elves. The objection to Maiar appears to be that Sorontar has descendants and can therefore not be Maia, the following paragraph about Maiar seems more like a digression.

Indeed the part about Maiar-orcs begins 'In any case...' and seems a digression. Text VIII is, in my opinion, not really the best with respect to consistency of thought. It's Tolkien thinking on paper (see below). But looking at the ideas in Morgoth's Ring in general, Tolkien has no objection to Orc-formed Maiar.

The 'Boldogs' or Maiar-orcs don't need to reproduce, despite what JRRT wrote in VIII (at one point at least). Their existence gives Tolkien his (possibly long-lived) Orcs early in the chronology -- primitive, powerful and perilous Orcs, if not in the great numbers of 'regular' Orcs that came later.

Mandos wrote: I did not refer to immortality either but your reference to the heritability, which is refuted towards the end for Elves as an issue because religion etc. can also corrupt.

I only brought it up because I find it notable that when (at one point) JRRT considered heritability problematic, or possibly so, he appears to have followed up with Elves as a source are 'very' unlikely, which seems to reveal something about his thought in general regarding the nature of Elves. This may be narrow with respect to heritability and the text, yes, but possibly speaks to a bigger picture concerning Elves.

Mandos wrote: So in the conclusion an Elf strain is included as a possibility. (The earlier reference to Elves to me is only that they are a remaining hypothesis after Men and dwarves have been rejected.)

Yes Elves are still involved in some way in text VIII (the added passage aside) and IX. Looking at the nature of the texts in question (purple text for Christopher Tolkien's commentary):

Text VIII (generally characterized as 'beast essay and etc') '... short essay (very much a record of 'thinking with the pen')

Text IX (Mixed origin: Elves, and 'probably later also of Men'; includes 'numerous corrupted minor spirits' who assumed similar shapes) '... written quickly in pencil, no indication of date' (fairly short)

Text X Orcs from Men, includes Maiar-orcs (possibly called Boldogs) 'I give here a text of an altogether different kind, a very finished essay on the origin of the Orcs.'

In my opinion, Orcs from Men is clearly the best textual example here, which Christopher Tolkien also says appears to represent his father's 'final' view of the question -- despite the problems he refers to immediately, with respect to two notes (one of which relates to the spelling of Orc, for example), that might muddy up this idea of 'final' view.

Galin

-- Edited by Galin on Friday 17th of April 2009 11:35:50 AM

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Mandos

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The 'Boldogs' or Maiar-orcs don't need to reproduce, despite what JRRT wrote in VIII (at one point at least). Their existence gives Tolkien his (possibly long-lived) Orcs early in the chronology -- primitive, powerful and perilous Orcs, if not in the great numbers of 'regular' Orcs that came later.

The only text that supports this in any way as the origin of Orcs is VIII where we seem to have agreed it's a digression. Even there it's not possible after the fall of Utumno.

I consider it much more likely that these were intended as Orc-captains, incarnating among Orcs already existing (as is also explicitly stated in the other texts). I see no problem with that as Maiar also incarnated as wolf-leaders, it likely involves the possession of an existing body.

Text X Orcs from Men, includes Maiar-orcs (possibly called Boldogs) 'I give here a text of an altogether different kind, a very finished essay on the origin of the Orcs.'

In my opinion, Orcs from Men is clearly the best textual example here, which Christopher Tolkien also says appears to represent his father's 'final' view of the question -- despite the problems he refers to immediately, with respect to two notes (one of which relates to the spelling of Orc, for example), that might muddy up this idea of 'final' view.

CT says in the beginning relative to all the texts "But the greatest problem is that there is very little firm indication of date external or relative: to order them into even an approximate sequence of composition seems impossible...". So this seems to be CT's "spin" on the matter, JRRT himself begins that text with "It is not here the place to debate the question of the origin of the Orcs...".

What supports that view in that text however is the idea that it was actually Sauron who bred the Orcs during Morgoth's captivity. However he would not have had the power to just corrupt, so there would have been multiple elements involved. (This is perhaps also suggested by that hey are described as having fangs in LoTR.) However JRRT did not rewrite this into the (apparently) earlier writings despite having (apparently) 13 years of his life left to do so.

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Topic: Men or Elves?