Tolkien Forums

Glorfindel and mouthofsauron, before I comment about the topic itself, just one small point.  Both of you seem to be talking of Angmar as if it is a person.  Angmar was the name of the realm of the Witch-King, which had its capital at Carn Dum.  Although a small point, I feel that it should be emphasized.

Glorfindel, the realm of Angmar was not, as you say, surrounded by enemies.  All of the enemies that you have mentioned were all to the south of Angmar with the exception of the Grey Mountains, which were parallel to the southern reaches of Angmar.  True, pretty much all of the lands southwards of Angmar were hostile, but the east and north (since there was really no point in going west with the Bay of Forochel not too far distant).

However, in re-reading the initial question, I neglected to address the issue of protecting Angmar's borders once the realm itself was established.  The Dwarves of the Grey Mountains were primarily preoccupied by the dragons of the region, so there was little threat from them.  Lindon was too far distant to launch an assault that was not accompanied by a long warning.  The Elves of Mirkwood were concerned with Dol Gulder in the south of the forest, leaving Rivendell and Arnor.  The best defense against both in this case was an assault, which the Witch-King did through Rhudaur.  By using the Men of Arnor against themselves, any threat from both Arnor and Imladris was essentially negated, since both had to deal with Rhudaur before they could come to Angmar.

I would say the Witchking would be better off establishing a realm west of Isengard but south of Arnor. A wide open land, and although it was also surrounded by enemies it had more ways of escape.

I agree that the North would be the main threat, but overall it was a better strategic postion than Angmar.

Firstly lets analyse Angmar.

North - Goblins that may not be utterly under Angmars control. Dragons in the very North which Angmar could not control.
Threat level: 1 minimum threat.

West - Northern Arnor, Grey Havens-Mithlond, Dwarves of the Ered Luin.
Threat level: 3, High threat

East - Still minor threat from goblins but Also Northern Mirkwood and very far East was Erebor.
Threat level: 2, medium threat.

South - Most of Arnor, Minor threat from the Shire, Rivendell, and Dwarfs from the Mountains of Mist.
Threat level: 3 High threat.

Total threat level- 9/12

Next lets Analyse this place I speak of (west of Isengard)

North - All of Arnor, The Shire, Grey havens, Rivendell, Dwarfs of Ered Luin.
Threat level: 3, high threat

East - Minor threat from very north of Gondor and Lorien, both of which would deal mainly with Dol,guldur.
Threat Level: 1, low threat

South - Gondor.
Threat level: 2, medium threat, but Gondor mainly dealt with the men of the East and South and Dol guldur.

West - -Void-
Threat level - 0, Unless Valinor would launch an asualt (threat level - 10!). Gondor would have sent ships to places like Umbar and Pelagir, Not here.

Total threat level - 6/12

Now don't go saying this post is rubbish, i thought it was a pretty good way of doing it and its taken me a while!

Right OK. Well I am talking about a place between the river Isen and Greyflood, near the shores of the Sea.

Angmar is a little Northwest of what I thought it was but my analysing is still roughly accurate with a couple of alterations.

I won't deny it was not a reasonable position but I still feel as though he was blocked in. He cn go scarecely further north becuase of the Inhospitible cold, so one strong force from the south would finish him.

How about making a change to the map to show the place where I am on about? Colour it in yellow. West of Isengard between the Isen and Greyflood.
This was it will be better for other to make an opinion.

Angmar was sent from Dol Guldar, not Mordor (Ithilien would not come into it). All he would have to do to get to where I am talking about is go through Rohan, which had not been established yet.

Gondor had enough on there plates contending with the men of the south and east. The hold over the east near Rhun was slowly being depleted. Arnor was fighting amoungst themselves.

I don't see where you have marked my chosen place for the WK, The might?

No. Angmar could go south from Guldur throught the Old Brown lands to the Emyn muil, then west throught Rohan.

I will say this for the last time - Gondor were increasingly getter weaker, even though they were at the height of there power. They were being bombarded by Harad and the East. Northern Gondor had to suffer Dol Guldur. None of Gondor was fit to make yet another army to set to destroy the WK.
Arnor was fighting largly amoung itself and was only fit for defence, not attack.

My analogy back up the thread is accurate. Lets wait to here some other opinions.

You really like arguments don't you The Might?

Gondor was too stretched. full stop.

I m pretty sure the WK would have found some way to cross the Anduin, even if it meant sailing across. Whether Orcs don't like water or not is irrelevent - If WK said for them to cross, they would.

I use Rohan becuase its shorter, and I will continue to do so.

I suggest you read my analogy thread above the map. You have given it no attention probably due to the fact that you cannot find fault with it.

Then Our views completely differ. Gondor was a very small threat, wheras you think it was a big threat.

If you have read UT at all you will know how pushed Gondor was with its threat in the south and East, it was struggling to maintain its position. They could not just go and summon a force great enough to attack Angmar.

Therefore if you count Gondor as a minimum threat that would knock my places threat level back to 6/12.

I have read the topic and have to agree with Mouth. Gondor would not have been an intense threat as it had too many troubles of its own.

I will not give the actual quotes but instead some page referances to you The Might, as clearly you need them:

Unfinished Tales

Page 374 - Gondor against the wainriders, The wainriders re-took much of the land east of what Gondor had claimed.

Page 378-382 - Disaster for gondor as Wainriders and men of Khand succeed in breaking Gondors army and forcing them all the way back to central Ithilien. The waintriders were very close to utterly defeating Gondor but thanks to Earnil they were forced to retreat.

It took Gondor long to recover from these attacks and there men were low. At one point the Wainriders were siging that Gondor was pretty much destroyed yet becuase of the Victory in the south Earnil was able to force the Wainriders back.

Now in these times of need, when Gondors borders are shrinking and they are recovering from new wave after wave of attack from the East and South I hardly think they could muster a force great enough to destroy the WK. And as for gondors ships coming to the west of this suggested place of Mouths, they could have done no such thing, they were too pushed.

As to your second point about west Anguin being defended, it says in these pages that Gondor had to retreat beyond Anduin into central Ithilien, therefore there would be scarecely any forces on Anduin as they had either been killed in the assualt or they had retreated.

So, i suggest you read through these pages and see for yourself that what mouth is saying is true.

If you want to be so precise about everything then Angmar was actually properly founded in 1400.

The time I speak of is all roughly about the same time as this. You have not even refered to the pages I gave as you replied far too quickly so your the 'Hasty' one my friend.

I think you will find that that is quite a rough estimation.

According to 'The Atlas of Tolkiens Middle-earth' Angmar was sent north in 1350.

Well that is where we are getting confused The Might.

Anyway we are getting a bit off topic. Back to the places of positioning...

I would add that at the time of Romendacil ll that the only reason Gondor had a short breathing space was from recovering from an attack. They were recovering not at full strength.

I will wait to see if anyone else gives there opinion on the matter.