I have been pondering how a line would follow in tterms of greatness of the following:
Eldar of the undying lands, Numenoreans, Elves of middle-earth, middle-earth peoples.
I would say that Eldar of undying lands would come first and men of Middle-earth last but who is greater in the second age, Numenoreans or Elves of middle-earth?
I have always think that elves are greater than any race of men. So quess men of middle-earth come last and then numenoreans then elves but i cant say which order those are.
who is greater in the second age, Numenoreans or Elves of middle-earth?
I'd say that the Númenóreans were indeed the "greater" people during the Second Age, or they were at least at the height of their power. When Ar-Pharazôn comes to Middle-earth and lands at Umbar, Sauron's troops flee from that entire region and Sauron himself is taken aback by their strength and splendour. The same cannot be said of the Elves of that era.
I would say the Numenoreans were maybe about equal in greatness with the elves when they were at their peak of power during the second age, but I personally don't think that they were ever greater than the elves.
Are you sure about that Bauglir? The Numenoreans splendour is too great to declare in words. they, may not compare with the Elves of the Undying lands but I would say greater than the Elves of Middle-earth.
I doubt you can really give marks for different folk in ME. they were good and bad in different aspects you can't really say how many points they get, at least that's my opinion
This one seems pretty easy. By design the Races follow a certain order. In general the order is:
Ainur Firstborn Secondborn
That leaves the Dwarves and Hobbits in an unusual position. I would argue that Dwarves fall between Elves and Men, simply because of their origin. The Dwarves were actually the First born, but then no one better argue with Eru.
There are many instances in Tolkien's work where the greater examples of a weaker race may actually best the weaker examples of a stronger race. There are plenty of examples of this all throughout his works.
Turin vs Glaurung Ecthelion vs Gothmog Beren vs Celegorm Luthien vs Morgoth (Vala vs Half-Maia) Gil-Galad & Elendil vs Sauron Ar-Pharazon vs Sauron
Overall however there was no significant change in the general heirarchy.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
well, I think Celethil is expressing about the same idea that I already expressed:
"I doubt you can really give marks for different folk in ME. they were good and bad in different aspects you can't really say how many points they get, at least that's my opinion"
as, he showed, you can't clearly which the weaker or stonger race was because there are many examples of persons coming from a "weaker" race that defeated others from "stronger" races. And I say "weaker" and "stronger", because I don't think a real comparrison can be done.
In regard to the original question, I think it is flawed in the way it is worded.
The Ainur are greater than the Quendi who are greater than Men, regardless of Age.
Within each group you could draw divisions. The Valar being greater than the Maiar, the Elves would be ranked Vanyar, Noldor, Sindar, and Men would be split between Edain and lesser men.
I would only think that the Numenoreans became greater than their forefathers because they were guided by Elves for a long time. Although even that point is open to debate. If the Numenoreans ever appeared greater it was because of their mortal point of view. They had less time to accomplish their goals and so they strove harder. The Elves were only concerned with time when they were growing weary of the world.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
I disagree. The answer is simple. The races follow an order. Ainur, Firstborn, Secondborn. Although I think the Dwarves have a special position because of their origin.
As mentioned before there were just instances in the history of Middle-Earth of exceptional members of lower races, besting higher races.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Well thats a very brief analysis there Celethil. We know that the Firstborn were greater than the Second born. Numenoreans, Valinor Elves, Middle-earth Elves, Men of Middle-earth is what we were trying to catgorise.
The Noldor and Vanyar learned their craft and became great because of what they learned in Valinor.
The Numenoreans learned their craft and became great because of what they learned from the Elves.
The Sindar and other Elves in Middle-Earth learned a lot from the Noldor when they came into Middle-Earth.
The Numenoreans only appeared to be greater than everyone else because of their numbers.
The only race that is difficult to categorize or rank is the Dwarves because of their special place in the scheme of creation, and they were very secretive about everything.
I guess Im not sure what answer you are looking for because the races you want to categorize waxed and waned over the ages. At their peak I would list them as Noldor, Vanyar, Sindar, Naugrim, Numenorean, Men of the First Age, Hobbits.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
I would agree with Celethil, though I would also add that true greatness only comes from understanding of the not only the beauty of Ea but also of the reasons why it is beautiful and where that beauty came from. To that extent those that have seen the light of the two trees are more great (as opposed to greater) than all others for they have seen more of the beauty of Arda than any. And those who dwelled in the west have more understanding of the origins of their people and their world.
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Lamentation for the two trees is the only way to achieve eternal sorrow.
I didnt mean there was no answer at all. I ment that these races differed in greatness during there time in middl-earth. I completely agree with Celethil on the order of things.
