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Topic: The Dark Fire!

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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The Dark Fire!

"I am a servant of the secret Fire, weilder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go baack to the shadow! You cannot pass."


Does anyone know what the secret Fire, the flame of Anor or the Dark fire is? I kinow Anor is the sun but what does he mean by wielder of the sun?



-- Edited by Glorfindel1235 at 10:45, 2006-03-24

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Valar
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I quess it means just simply that power that Gandalf received from Valar when he came to Middle-earth. You are right that Anor is a sun and the that it would be Flame of the Sun. And then if we look this from another view, there is a clear fight between the powers, good and evil. The power/fire/good that Gandalf possessed and the black fire/power/evil of Balrog, a servant of evil.


'You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. ' I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the shadow! You cannot pass.'



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Chief Maiar
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If the Flame of Anor would be equivalent to the Flame of the Sun then would it hold true that the it's power stems directly from the Valar, since the Sun is mearly the last fruit of Laurelin created by Yavanna. Anor is also a name for the true west, Valinor, and Gandalf is also the wielder of Narya (the Ring of Fire).
As for the Secret Fire, that was in effect the fire that burns at the centre of Ea. Melkor searched for it in the far reaches of the void before the decent to Arda but did not find because is was always with Eru, for he is the centre of all things. It is also thought that the Secret Fire is what makes the sentient beings alive, it is the gift that only Eru can bestow which is why no other can create sentient life. Though both Melkor and Aule tried it could not be done, Aule's creations (Dwarves) however were gifted life by Eru because Aule was good, where as Melkor had to just create mockeries of living things (such as uruks).

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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I just wanted to add that the source of these powers were different. The Balrogs were spirits of fire and had this power from their beginnings. Olorin however studied the fire magic and that is how he came to master the flames. Also it is speculated that the fact he possesed Narya, the Ring of Fire also had something to do with his powers.
But of course Gandalf did study a lot befoe he cameto master that power.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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I would say that it wasn't 'Fire' magic that Gandalf studied but rather 'Light' magic.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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No, I am quite sure that it was fire magic in that case. Look at this quote from UT, The Istari:
"Warm and eager was his spirit (and it was enhanced by the ring Narya), for he was the enemy of Sauron, opposing the fire that devours and wastes with the fire that kindles, and succours in wanhope and distress; but his joy, and his swift wrath, were veiled in garments grey as ash, so that only those that knew him well glimpsed the flame that was within. "
As we see here Gandalf is clearly presented as a spirit of fire and that controls fire magic.
Also another quote, same source:
"For they deemed him (though in error, as has been said) to be of Elven-kind, since he would at times works wonders among them, loving especially the beauty of fire; and yet such marvels he wrought mostly for mirth and delight, and desired not that any should hold him in awe or take his counsels out of fear."
Also from Lotr:
"That was Gandalf’s mark, of course, and the old man was Gandalf the Wizard, whose fame in the Shire was due mainly to his skill with fires, smokes, and lights. "
As we see also the term light appears here, but again associated with the fire.
There might be other quotes associating Gandalf with fire, but I didn't look.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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He does practise with fire magic but the overall magic he uses is Light magic, fire magic would come under this.


He says so in The Hobbit and LOTR.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Maybe you could provide some quotes for you statement, glorfindel...
And I have to disagree with you, the fire magic doesn't belong to light magic, considering the fact it also belongs to dark magic as we see in the quotes above.
there was fire coming from light (what Gandalf used), and fire coming from darkness (in the case of Balrogs). So we could divide fire magic into these 2 categories.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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I know the quote Glorfindel is refering to. Gandalf is telling either Frodo or Bilbo about his studies of Light magic such as Fireworks but i cannot recall where I have seen it. looking for a quote which could be amoungst many books and having no idear where to find it is a very hard task but you should know the quote he is refering to if you have read LOTR and The Hobbit.

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Chief Maiar
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I'd have to just point out one thing here, going back to the start, Gandalf is a servant of the secret 'Fire' that being the fire which Eru set to burn at the heart of Ea and within the Fae of all his creations this would imply that it is not the Fire which is part of Light Magic or Dark magic but rather light is part of Fire Magic, and as for the Dark Fire it is written that Melkor could not create life for himself for he had not power over the secret fire therefore he made as he does a mockery of it and made the dark fire which again would have been done by corrupting Fire Magic.
Though the technical meaning of light can often be interchanged with that of fire as fire brings light and light is born from fire.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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well, I think you might understand what I meant now that Olorin explained it better for yyou

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Chief Maiar
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Just call me Olorin the translator.

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...But it was so that from Nienna he learned pity and patience.

Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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How though, Olorin, maiar, could Melkor corrupt the Secret Fire or indeed any fire?

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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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After reading through all of the answers to the initial question, the best I could come up with was my own simplistic view.

"I am a servant of the secret Fire, weilder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go baack to the shadow! You cannot pass."

Gandalf appears to be saying: I serve the Flame Imperishable, wielding the Ring of Fire. You cannot pass. Your dark power will not avail you, servant of Morgoth. Go back to the shadow! You cannot pass.

Im pretty sure of my first and last substitution, but the two in the middle are open to debate.

-- Edited by Celethil at 04:59, 2006-08-07

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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the only thing you can change is Anor = Sun, so he would say wielder of the flame of the sun.
remember, Gandalf had power in fire magic even before receiving Narya, he had learned it
anyway, it's quite clear what Gandalf wanted to say and I guess analysing his words would be a little off-topic

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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So it appears to be:


"I am a servant of the Flame Imperishable, weilder of the Flame of the Sun. The Darkness will not avail you Dark power of Utumno...."



-- Edited by mouth of sauron at 10:35, 2006-08-07

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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ok...I really dunno why you are saying this now, as Lord Tulkas has already interpreted the quote in the same way in the beginning of the thread...

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Just putting it all together...

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Black Numenorean - Rank 3
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It may be a simpler metaphor, for the light of "good" (for lack of a better term), referring to the light of day, referring to that which gives life in ME, as opposed to darkness, symbolic of death, and destruction.


Just one fellows opinion, as in writing this book, Tolkien may have assumed that the reader is only familiar with the story being written, and no be aware of the more subtle nuances of the histories of UT, or The Sil... 



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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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I don't think its a metaphor at all. It was one of the Maiar stating fact directly to another. The only thing I find a little mystical is the mention of the flame of the sun. Gandalf certainly would have had access to the flame of the sun while in Valinor, so I guess it makes sense.

Because of the nature of the Ainur, I won't join in a debate about 'fire magic' or 'light magic' since I think that would only amuse any Elves or Maiar reading this.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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sounds more like a Heroes of M&M discussion, doesn't it?
anyway, perhaps you are right, maybe Gandalf could wield the flame of Anor
I remember that Legolas tried to go find the sun while the fellowship was up on Caradhras...

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Black Numenorean - Rank 3
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The Might wrote:


sounds more like a Heroes of M&M discussion, doesn't it?
anyway, perhaps you are right, maybe Gandalf could wield the flame of Anor
I remember that Legolas tried to go find the sun while the fellowship was up on Caradhras...



I think Legolas was just looking for a break in the storm when he said that.

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Hobbit folk of Hardbottle - Rank 3
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Going way back to Glorfindel1235's original post and question, the web and Google are wonderful things.  There is a good entry in Wikipedia on this very matter at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Fire

If Olorin/Gandalf didn't write that entry, he certainly had an equal understanding of it.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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that makes sense to me, it is my view on this subject as well

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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I did not know that Anor was another name for Valinor. If that is the case then when Gandalf says 'Weilder of the Flame of Arnor' it makes much more sense than any previous interpretations we have come up with (such as Flame Imperishable or the Sun).

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Elf of Rivendell - Rank 2
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I am a bit skeptical about Anor = Valinor, as the former is simply a Sindarin word for "Sun" coming from an intensified version (ANÁR) of the Eldarin root for "fire" (NAR). Can anyone provide the citation or reference that this bit of information comes from?

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Tom Bombadil
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The Flame of Udûn was Gandalf's name for the Balrog that dwelt in the depths of Moria, that he faced on the Bridge of Khazad-dûm, and ultimately defeated. 'Flame' is a reference to its nature as a fire-demon, while 'Udûn' was the name of Morgoth's oldest and greatest fortress in the north of the World, more commonly called Utumno, and the Balrog's ancient home.
There is no direct connection between this 'Udûn' and the rounded valley to the northwest of Mordor with the same name. There is an indirect connection, though: that region also took its name from the stronghold of Saurons master.



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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Very true Arwenlegolas. However I do not think Gandalf defeated the Balrog as he himself died. It was a K.O. but I know what your getting at.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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mos...of course he did
He killed the balrog and that's all.
The fact that he passed away soon afterwards is irrelevant to this

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Elf of Rivendell - Rank 2
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I thought that the Balrog died not because of wounds inflicted by Gandalf, but because of his fall from the mountaintop of Zirakzigil after their fight?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Hmm...I seem to realise my not so appropriate choice of words now

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Tom Bombadil
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I'll take a look at some of the Vinyar Tengwar I have somewhere in my house Tyrhael. Or I could email the Elvish Linguistic Fellowship and ask Karl Hostetter. He should have something on that.

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Tom Bombadil
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I just wrote Carl Hostetter about your question Tyrhael. I should get a response in a few days. I hope.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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The Might - when two forces are eliminated in battle its really a KO not a victory and defeat.

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Elf of Rivendell - Rank 2
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Erm, my "question"? What do you mean, ArwenLegolas? What did you ask Mr. Hostetter?

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Tom Bombadil
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Tyrhael wrote:

I am a bit skeptical about Anor = Valinor, as the former is simply a Sindarin word for "Sun" coming from an intensified version (ANÁR) of the Eldarin root for "fire" (NAR). Can anyone provide the citation or reference that this bit of information comes from?

This one Tyrhael.



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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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Wouldnt the secret fire indeed be Narya because it was passed onto him by gil-gilad when he died and narnya is the ring of fire....so in conclusion Narya would be the secret fire because it was kept secret he had it because of Sauron.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Of course Narya in ways unknown enhanced Gandalf's power, but as you might notice by reading through the thread he already possesed this power when he was sent to Middle-earth, so he must have learned this in Valinor.
Alsol, the word "servant" would not fit, as Narya unlike the One Ring never takes control of the bearer.

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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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ahhh ok i just noticed this sorry. i read though on wikipedia that the secret fire is the power that Eru Illuvatar used to create everything is this accurate information? it says that its mentioned by melkor because he wants to possess it to create a new world in his image.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Yes, that is all correct.
What Melkor really wants is however somewhat unclear.
Indeed in the beginning he wished to gain this power in order to make a world of his own, but as he realised he will never gain this power he decided he can at least take control of Arda. So he started corrupting creatures, since he could not create, and used them to accomplish his plans. Tolkien however notes that unlike Sauron, Melkor would never have been content wil ruling the entire world, even if all obeyed him and the Valar had been banished since he remove the good part in all things that came from Eru and so in his madness would have destroyed everything including his own creatures until all was chaos.

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