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Topic: Doomed at birth?

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Lord Tulkas
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Doomed at birth?
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Okay, about Túrin. Man with many names and many different episodes in his life. Now i would like to ask your opinions about why his life was what it was. Was his life doomed from the beginning (Morgoth's curse) and everything went like it was already planned? And then other thing concerning this same matter..Túrin was "famous" of taking new names always when something bad happen and he failed in something. Could there be some connection with that doom and that name roulette? It's like he was trying to start his life all over again by claiming new identity and name? Was there something about that curse/doom that he suspected in deep down in his mind and heart and tried shake that off by chancing names etc.?



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mouth of sauron
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This is strange question.
Turin I think was destined to be the greatest of men. He was destined to slay Morgoth in Valinor in the Dagor dagorath. Perhaps his life was focussed on by the lords of the west more than others. And thus his life befell many more challenges than others of the secondborn.
I would not call this 'Doom' however. I would say that whoever instructed his fate was testing him for his greatest feit, and the one which would make him a Vala.


If you could provide us with some quotes Lord Tulkas then perhaps we could better your answer.



-- Edited by The One at 15:35, 2006-05-08

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Lord Tulkas
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"A Túrin Turambar turún' ambartanen: master of doom by doom mastered. O happy to be dead!"Words of Nienor in Silmarillion.


Maybe i wasn't specific enough about topic. Húrin and all his kin were cursed by Morgoth after Nirnaeth Arnoediad and that curse was on Túrin all his adult life. That is the "doom" i'm talking about.



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Glorfindel
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I agree with mouthofsauron111, I think his life was the wauy it was becuase it was a test for his final test if you see what i mean.

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Elvish Avantguardian
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It might be that his mission in Arda was slaying Glaurung. Ragnarök is the end of the world and evil, but not the purpose of the Creation, and the participants of it are resurrected having died whether of age or of hostile hand.

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Narguzir
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I do not think that Túrin's life was the way it was because it was a test before he faced Morgoth. In fact, I think it's the reverse almost. He only faces Morgoth in the Dagor Dagorath because of the cruel life that Morgoth imposed upon him and so takes revenge for his doomed life.


As for the question that Agarwaen initially asked, I doubt that Túrin's life was doomed from his birth.


"Then Morgoth cursed Húrin and Morwen and their offspring, and set a doom upon them of darkness and sorrow" (The Silmarillion, Of The Fifth Battle)


This clearly shows that Morgoth did not set his malice upon the house of Húrin until after the Fifth Battle, after Túrin had already been born.



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mouth of sauron
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I think what Lord Tulkas means Narg, is was Turin 'doomed' to have Morgoth doom his family in the first place if you see what I mean. Was he doomed to have such a terrible life from the beginning, apart from Morgoths curse upon Hurin.

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The Might
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it is matter of linguistic understanding.
if by offspring you understand those born in the family only after the fifth battle then Narg is correct.
if by offspring you understand, as I think is correct, all the children they had, before or after that event, then Narg is wrong.
personally by the term offspring I would define all the children, including Turin.

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mouth of sauron
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In other words you think the whole family was essential 'Doomed' from the beginning, besides Morgoths curse?

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The Might
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in my own words, the whole family, including Turin was doomed by Morgoth.

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ArwenLegolas
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The Might, but did Morgoth have the Right or the Power to Curse? Is there any place that says that Eru Iluvatar gave him that power? I can stand here and pronounced a curse on somebody, but I doubt it would really hold, because I have no authoritative basis. Where is it said that the curse really stuck? I know the whole story, just like all of you. I would just like to throw this out and see where it takes us. It would also be interesting to see where all those statements came from.

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mouth of sauron
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The Might is indeed right.

Morgoth, being the most powerful of beings in Ea had the power to weave a doom opf his own and not have to call on a 'Higher power' to do so. Thats why he called himself 'Master of the Fates of Arda'. In tyhe introducion to The Children of Hurin' (new book) Christopher Tolkien clearly clarrifies this. Her are some quotes:

"The curse of such a being, who can claim that 'the shadow of my purpose lies upon Arda, and all that is in it bends slowly and surely to my will', is unlike the curses or imprecations of beings of far less power. Morgoth is not 'invoking' evil or calamity on Hurin and his children, he is not 'calling on' a higher power to be the agent: for he, 'Master of the Fates of Arda' as he named himself to Hurin, intends to bring about the ruin of his enemy by the force of his own gigantic will. Thus he 'designs' the future of those whom he hates, and so he says to Hurin: 'Upon all whom you love my thought shall weight as a cloud of Doom, and shall bring them down into darkness and despair.'"

See more of the Introduction for more information.

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The Secret Fire
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In the version of Narn i Chîn Húrin in the Unfinished Tales, Morgoth makes it fairly clear that he intends the curse on the House of Hador to extend to all living and future family members. Why else would he spy on the living members of the Hador household left behind after the occupation by the Easterlings?

Consider this quote:

"Then wrath mastered Morgoth, and he said: "Yet I may come at you, and all your accursed house; and you shall be broken on my will, though you all were made of steel." And he took up a long sword that lay there and broke it before the eyes of Húrin, and a splinter wounded his face; but Húrin did not blench. Then Morgoth stretching out his long arm towards Dor-lómin cursed Húrin and Morwen and their offspring, saying: "Behold! The shadow of my thought shall lie upon them wherever they go, and my hate shall pursue them to the ends of the world."

If the curse is upon Húrin and Morwen, it would make no sense for it not to be extended to any already living and future children of theirs. Not to mention that Túrin later describes a mist over his memory after a certain age as a child, implying that the curse began at a certain age (possibly when Morgoth placed the curse on Túrin - I don't remember how old he was then).

On the other hand, Túrin consistently made some really poor choices in life that would have led him to woe whether or not anyone had placed a curse upon him. Curses don't exist in our world, but it was pretty clear that they did in Tolkien's...and used with varying degrees of success by everyone from the Valar to Men. The question to me seems to be more like: "Did Túrin's life HAVE to be as miserable as it was?" I've never heard of any curse that affects a person's ability to make choices of their own free will.



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mouth of sauron
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The Secret Fire wrote:
I've never heard of any curse that affects a person's ability to make choices of their own free will.

Such was the Power of Morgoth's curse. Every decision Turin makes, every choice Morgoth was able to bend to a woe and torment. I do not think Morgoth was able to choose for Turin but he could make every choice Turin made to a bad end. To give you an example take Beleg. That was an evil fate that led Turin to think an enemy was coming to torment him when Beleg was freeing him forom the Orcs.

And I think Turin was about eight when Hurin was captured in the battle of Unnumbered Tears and taken to Angband.



-- Edited by mouth of sauron at 09:49, 2007-07-04

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treesofvalar21
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Here what i think happened, Turin obliviously wasnt cursed since birth beacuse Hurin went to battle and got captured when Turin was around 10. He was cursed around this time. With all the names, he made names to try to show he could withstand the curse and not let it affect him. But i think deep down he felt dark and cold and new his bured and curse.

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The Secret Fire
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One thing that I wasn't able to really pick up when reading - Did Turin know he was cursed? He alluded to it a couple of times but I don't think he did know? After all, only Hurin who never returned to his family was told by Morgoth about the curse. Whether or not he knew consciously about the curse might have majorly affected his behavior and choices. Not that he wouldn't still be cursed...but he might have acted different.

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treesofvalar21
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I dont think Turin knew about the curse, but i think deep down he felt empty and that some evil was apon him.

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Glorfindel
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Turin was told about the curse of Morgoth:

"'I have not seen him,' said Gwindor. 'But rumour of him runs through Angband that he still defies Morgoth; and Morgoth has laid a curse upon turn and all his kin.'

'That I do believe,' said Túrin."

Ever afterwards Turin tries to escape from his doom and hides his name of Turin in the hope of eluding it - to no avail.


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Bear
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Lord Tulkas posed the question, Doomed at Birth?
Okay, about Túrin. Man with many names and many different episodes in his life.
Now I would like to ask your opinions about why his life was what it was.
( I would like to re-frame the question into selected arenas of inquiry. Lord Tulkas please forgive this intrusion - but I think I can add a dimension and provide a more enlightened response.)
1.) Was his life doomed from the beginning (Morgoth's curse) and everything went like it was already planned?
2.) Túrin was "famous" of taking new names when something bad happened or when he failed in something. Could there be some connection with that doom and that name roulette?
3.) It's like he was trying to start his life all over again by claiming new identity and name.
Was there something about that curse/doom that he suspected in deep down in his mind and heart and tried shake that off by chancing names etc.?
Tolkien Forums -> Experienced Fanatics Forum (advanced) -> Doomed at birth?  Lord Tulkas;  March 17th, 2006



    I think this is another wonderful topic and demands scholarship and insight in at least 3 of the Tolkiens (Christopher and J.R.R) works; The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and The Children of Hurin.

    Opinions are like belly buttons.  Everybody has one. (Some of us, including me, have grown so fat that they cant find it, but trust me, it is still there.)
But each of these questions has at least two levels;
What did the author intend?
What insights do we have because of our immersion in the story?

    First what was Tolkien(s) trying to do?
    I believe that Turins tale was not written just to entertain.  Ingrained in this story seems to be a pattern of the classical tragedy or a medieval morality tale.  It may not be there by a conscious choice of Tolkien but I sincerely doubt that it was an unconscious projection.  Farmer Giles of Ham and Smith of Wootton Major both are stories with a moral.  And as an example of his scholarship and insight I offer his translations of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Pearl, and Sir Orfeo.  His translation and interpretation of the saga of Beowulf are legendary.  These I believe are very good examples that show Tolkien understood what he was writing and what literary form he was using. (please understand.  I know that Tolkien wanted to please his audience - always)
    In the story of Turin it is a classical tragedy.  It has overtones of the story of Oedipus; tragic figure in Greek mythology.  In Greek mythology, a son of Jocasta and Laius, king of Thebes, who unwittingly killed his father and married his mother.
And  it is a morality play, a common literary form of the medieval period.  The purpose of morality play or tale is to define and show the consequences of sin or sins.  And not just sin in general but specific sins.  
    Turins story is about the sins of arrogance and self will and selfishness.
    We can combine all these under the Greek  sin of hubris.
    According to the Encarta World English Dictionary means; 1.  pride: excessive pride or arrogance  2.  excessive ambition: the excessive pride and ambition that usually leads to the downfall of a hero in classical tragedy.


Have I got any takers with this theory?
    


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The Might
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Yes, of course this is what Tolkien wanted... the downfall of a great hero. It was of course common for the Greeks to choose people of great importance for their tragedies - the higher the position these people had before the tragedy struck, the higher the fall, the greater the impact on the viewer.
And so does Tolkien as well.

However, I believe this topic should rather deal with the question of fate in M-e. I know there is a great topic on the forums where we have dealt with luck, fate and providence in M-e, so some ideas from there may well be useful.

In conclusion, there are many ways to answer this question.
One can on one hand say as Bear that for Tolkien that Hurin had no way to escape his curse - he had to take the fall to complete the tragedy and this as a consequence of his negative actions.
However, on the other hand, we could ask... would Turin have survived his curse had he not been so selfish? Was there any way to escape his fate? Could he have survived even if he acted sefishly, but just had a bit more luck?

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Bear
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The Might,
  Good points.
  We can imagine the character of Turin making different choices at key crisis points and making a very different story.
  But the morality tale is not just hubris of Hurin or Turin.  His mother is certain that her focus is correct and condemns Turin to isolation from her and his sister.  His sister displays the same hubris that leaves her running naked in the woods. And pursuing her husband/brother against advice that leads her to the dragon.
Over and over again in this story the sin of pride condemns the all the characters to the curse.

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Gilril
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I think that words Morgoth said to Hùrin "I am the Lord of the Fates of Arda" are the key. he is really the Lord of it, because is his bad intent to write the fate of the world. he will be the one who will lose at the Final Battle, he will be the one who complitely understand how much his every action, his every mind, is the piece of the puzzle of the great glory of Ilùvatar, like Eru said to him in the Ainulindale...
so, as Earendil was born to come into Valinor and save Elves and Men (Valar themselves said this), Tùrin was born for live the life he lived. he was born to be cursed. he was born to suffer. this was his fate from the Music of the Ainur; and it cannot be changed. so, the "lord of the fates of Arda" cursed him and at the End, when Tùrin will defeat Melkor in Valinor, everyone - Melkor in first - know that all the actions, all the minds, of every Valar and every Man, are just the piece of the puzzle of his glory. and then, I think that new existence of Tùrin will be so great that he will know that all his pain was a good thing, just 'cause was about the glory of Eru. but we can't really know what does it mean, and we do not know how much is the glory of Eru, or the greatness of the End, right because it is not to appened yet.



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The Might
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Yes, Bear, again I agree.
But my question remains.
How could the mother then be so sure that her children would desplay this hubris over and voer again? Of course, she knew her chlidren, but was it really that obvious that if they did not respect her wishes they would end up horribly? Was it really so impossible for Turin to escape his fate, even though he acted arrogantly?

For Tolkien the answer to my last question may well be yes... for myself, I do not know.

Gilril, interesting stuff, I recommend you also read the Fate, Providence and Luck thread. There we have discussed if one's fate in M-e really is so unchangeable or if an individual can by making his own choices influence his future.

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Bear
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The Might,
Again you are right. We as readers of Tolkien can always skip a few pages ahead to see how it all turns out. I wish I could do that with my patients or my daughter. It would make my choices easier.
But, just like Morwen, I cannot. Only Eru knows how the music will end.

But Tolkien is clear...Melkor's evil comes to fruit in the sins of the creatures of Arda...and self-will run riot is one of the most popular.

-- Edited by Bear at 01:21, 2008-07-16

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Olorin/Gandalf
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About fate... I once read an article on it, I think, or somewhat alike. There was a nice sentence there, I don't remember it exactly, but it was something like this: "We cannot escape our so-called "fates", what will happen to us, for we do not know what choices we make to reach the "end". The only way to avoid what would happen is to kill yourself."

And yet to that one could say that mayhap the person's fate was to kill him/herself to avoid their fate, which leads to their own undoing...This is a tricky thing. Don't know why I'm even posting this to be honest, it has little to do with the topic at hand, or so it seems to me...


-- Edited by Olorin/Gandalf on Wednesday 19th of May 2010 10:40:44 AM

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Bear
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Olorin/Gandalf,
I think your posting is very relevant. You say you dont know why your even posting. I'd say your intuition is right on.
What we are dealing with here is a deeper philosophical argument that Tolkien wrestled with.
I think that is why we find so many different versions of his works. (which is OK with me by the way; I love his stuff the more the better)

About fate... I once read an article on it, I think, or somewhat alike. There was a nice sentence there, I don't remember it exactly, but it was something like this: "We cannot escape our so-called "fates", what will happen to us, for we do not know what choices we make to reach the "end". The only way to avoid what would happen is to kill yourself."

And yet to that one could say that mayhap the person's fate was to kill him/herself to avoid their fate, which leads to their own undoing...This is a tricky thing. Don't know why I'm even posting this to be honest, it has little to do with the topic at hand, or so it seems to me... :p (Tolkien Forums -> Experienced Fanatics Forum (advanced) -> Doomed at birth? >Olorin/Gandalf > July 16th, 2008 )

Please follow this quote. It is much more eloquent than my literary endeavor
Suppose it were known, by someone else, what you are going to choose to do tomorrow. Wouldn't that entail that tomorrow you must do what it was known in advance that you would do? In spite of your deliberating and planning, in the end, all is futile: you must choose exactly as it was earlier known that you would. The supposed exercise of your free will is ultimately an illusion. Historically, the tension between foreknowledge and the exercise of free will was addressed in a religious context. According to orthodox views in the West, God was claimed to be omniscient (and hence in possession of perfect foreknowledge) and yet God was supposed to have given humankind free will. Attempts to solve the apparent contradiction often involved attributing to God special properties, for example, being "outside" of time. However, the trouble with such solutions is that they are generally unsatisfactory on their own terms. Even more serious is the fact that they leave untouched the problem posed not by God's foreknowledge but that of any human being. Do human beings have foreknowledge? Certainly, of at least some events and behaviors. Thus we have a secular counterpart of the original problem. A human being's foreknowledge, exactly as would God's, of another's choices would seem to preclude the exercise of human free will. Various ways of trying to solve the problem for example, by putting constraints on the truth-conditions for statements, or by "tightening" the conditions necessary for knowledge are examined and shown not to work. Ultimately the alleged incompatibility of foreknowledge and free will is shown to rest on a subtle logical error. When the error, a modal fallacy, is recognized, and remedied, the problem evaporates. (Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy : Foreknowledge and Free Will ; http://www.iep.utm.edu/a/augustin.htm)

The two concepts (i) foreknowledge and (ii) human freedom seem to be utterly incompatible. The challenge, then, i.e. the problem posed by epistemic determinism, is to find a way to show that
either (1) foreknowledge (of human beings' future actions) does not exist;
or (2) free will does not exist;
or (3) the alleged logical relation between foreknowledge and the exercise of free will is mistaken (i.e. foreknowledge is not incompatible with the exercise of free will).

Fate is another name for determinism.

There are three distinct versions of determinism: logical, epistemic, and causal. Each has been alleged to pose a threat to the exercise of free will, indeed it has been claimed of each version that its existence is incompatible with the existence of free will.

1. Logical determinism is most frequently couched as the problem of 'future contingents'. The threat to the exercise of free will arises from the thesis that the truth-value (i.e. the truth or falsity) of any proposition[3] is timeless, i.e. those propositions that are true are always true, and those propositions that are false are always false. Thus:

If a proposition about some future action you undertake (let's say tomorrow) is true, then it is true now. But if it is true now, then tomorrow you must undertake that action, that action must occur, you are powerless to prevent yourself from undertaking that action.

(Note that "logical" in the phrase "logical determinism" is not meant to contrast with "illogical", but instead refers to a particular concept of logic, namely truth itself.)

2. Epistemic determinism has a strikingly similar formulation. Instead of simply attributing truth (or falsity) to propositions about the future, epistemic determinism concerns such propositions' being known prior to the times of the occurrences they refer to. We then get this argument, parallel to the preceding one:

If a proposition about some future action you undertake is known (in advance), then (when the time comes) you must undertake that action, that action must occur, you are powerless to prevent yourself from undertaking that action.

3. Causal determinism is the thesis that all events (occurrences, processes, etc.) are the result of Laws of Nature and of antecedent conditions and of nothing else. Thus when a car radiator cracks overnight, it is the consequence of laws pertaining to the tensile strength of iron, of laws pertaining to the expansion of water upon freezing, to the structure of the radiator, to its being filled with water without anti-freeze, and to the temperature's falling well below freezing for several hours.[4] In the case of human beings' acting, the same scenario is said to obtain.

If whatever one does is the result of Laws of Nature and of one's physical and genetic makeup and one's personal history, then since all these 'factors' are 'set' (or 'in place') at the moment of one's acting you must undertake the action you perform, that action must occur, you are powerless to prevent yourself from undertaking that action.
Three arguments all with the same conclusion, namely that your actions are 'determined' (in one of three different ways) and thus your actions are 'unfree'.
Free will is an illusion.
(Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy : http://www.iep.utm.edu/f/foreknow.htm#section1)




-- Edited by Bear at 04:16, 2008-07-17

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Olorin/Gandalf
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Thanks, Bear, yet another interesting read. Of foreknowledge, however:

I sometimes have dreams, I dream things I don't remember. And then it happens. For example, I was sitting in my chemistry lesson and the teacher was talking and I suddenly realized "hey, I've seen this before!". I got the deja vu feeling and then remember the dream, that I had had the same sort of feelings and thoughts and had seen the same things in the dream.

And mayhap it is so with all human beings, but most don't remember the dreams themselves? That we see things we will do, and then we are going to do it because our mind saw that we will? Who knows, I probably don't remember all the "true" dreams either, but that would, to some extent, explain why we do the things we do. "God", or something else, mayhap our mind itself, sets a "course" while we are dreaming and then we do things out of what we think is "free will" and still reach the "destination" that has been set.

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Bear
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Olorin/Gandalf,
Actually in psychiatric circles precognition is not uncommon. This is especially true in regard to dreams.
Freud called dreams "the royal road to the unconscious". And often patients claim to have lived their experience in their dreams before they experience in the waking world. It is treated as a normal function of the human psyche and not as aberrant behavior.
It may not be actually living the experience in our dreams. Very often stress, anxiety, or depression triggers a flood of neuro-chemical transmitters, neuro-inhibitors, or neuro-stimulators which our brain interprets as deja vue, precognition, visitation of a divine being, or even a ghost, or some other phenomena
While the last may seem a little far fetched if we total up these unexplained occurrences they often can become endomorphic.(things like stigmata, sudden graying of the hair, conversion reactions paralyzing limbs or functions such as sight or speech, and even interruption of a women's monthly cycle)

Basically my beliefs do not run with idea of a "fore ordained" anything; including "fate". We all have different talents and gifts that predispose us to respond in certain ways. So we may feel we have passed this way before. And I think we all have intuition. But we all have "free will" despite our predispositions.
We are just beginning to understand the subconscious and the way it effects our psycho-social and personal psychological reactions. But I do believe in may cases that our dreams, feelings, and conscious reaction are simply stimulus and response.
(but there is still lots of room in watching human behavior that I have no clue. And I cant rule out that their action or reaction does not come from numinous manifestation or some other brain function.)





-- Edited by Bear at 07:33, 2008-07-18

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Called or uncalled, God is present
Olorin/Gandalf
Chief Maiar
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Posts: 371
Date: Jul 18, 2008
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Yet another interesting post =). The thing that still bothers me is that I hear people say something for the first time, and I know that I have heard it before, although it's never been said when I'm around.

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...But it was so that from Nienna he learned pity and patience.
Bear
Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Posts: 2960
Date: Jul 19, 2008
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Olorin/Gandalf,
It sounds like a gift.  And it fits with your intuitive responses on the forum.
You maybe reading the subliminal messages unconsciously and interpreting messages before they are spoken...something to celebrate I would think.
Bear

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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit
Called or uncalled, God is present
lomoduin
Rohirrim of Edoras - Rank 4
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Posts: 396
Date: Jul 30, 2008
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I can't contribute much more on the subject according to the works and words of Tolkien in any of his books.   I love to write fantasy stories and I know that his intentions were his own and unknown in full to anyone, including his insightful son.  Also, as an (unpublished) author, I pride, there's that word, myself on not wasting my time or my reader's.  If I include information or detail in a story it is for a reason.  The problem is the reason I have for including it may not be the same "reason" my readers get out of it.  It's really a game of chance, art and circumstance.  My circumstnaces are different from any of yours, therefore any word or combonation if words will mean one thing to me and something entirely different to any one of you.  The questions posed originally have been answered correctly by all, both in faith and fact.  Thank you all for your insights and ideas.  I truely apprecitate them.  
                                             idea


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The winds of heaven do not blow gentle.
ArwenLegolas
Tom Bombadil
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Posts: 1882
Date: Aug 2, 2008
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Lomoduin, I saw your earlier post saying you feel like you have yet a lot to learn about Tolkienish stuff, don't gauge it on this thread. It sounds like they are having a Psychiatric and philophical background here. I can't compete with things like this either. Olórin, maybe you guys could move this thread to the Analytical Forum?

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Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!
Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow!
Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!
Bear
Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Posts: 2960
Date: Aug 3, 2008
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Thank you Arwen Legolas!
My apologies lomoduin.  Reading back it looks like I did ver off the subject.  Way off.  My only excuse is the subject and topic is very interesting.
Perhaps "Turin" was doomed from birth.  Trying to tap into his motivation would be more appropriate if I supported it with citation from Tolkien's work.
Again my apologies lomoduin.
And again welcome.

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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit
Called or uncalled, God is present
lomoduin
Rohirrim of Edoras - Rank 4
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Posts: 396
Date: Aug 4, 2008
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Please, don't apologize!! I really enjoy reading all of your thoughts and ideas. I don't really understand all of it but I have begun trying to apply a more actual translation to Tolkien's writings. As far as, I've always enjoyed and envied his mastery and appreciation for complex sentence structure, complex thought and fantastic poetry. Now I'm looking at it from more of a literal side. i.e. How do his legends compare to those I know of other cultures and eras. I'm so glad to be a part of a group of people who appreciate and truely love his creations and talent and aren't just "in love" with Orlando Bloom or Viggo Mortenson. Not that they aren't talented. You guys know what I mean, though, I'm sure. Much love to all and keep the lessons coming.

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The winds of heaven do not blow gentle.
ArwenLegolas
Tom Bombadil
Status: Offline
Posts: 1882
Date: Dec 14, 2008
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Are you guys through with this discussion? Or should I archive it?

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Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!
Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow!
Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!
Bear
Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
Status: Offline
Posts: 2960
Date: Dec 14, 2008
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Lady Arwen,
I think more could be said.  Especially if the 2nd Age thread grows.  I still have a lot to learn about Turin and all the side stories connected or related to him.
Maybe it should be archived and a new thread begun?  I would like to see more comments and activity too.
What is the next step?

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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit
Called or uncalled, God is present
picaroghosh
Elves of the Third Age - Rank 1
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Posts: 3
Date: May 3, 2010
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Turin's life is indeed one of woe and grief. Though, I find little pity for him, I do think he was cursed: to come upon your own sis and mistake her for... ... well you know what happened. Sadly, he couldn't even hear the last words of Nienor Niniel.

In a sense, how worse could your bad luck get? Being haughty and proud, killing an elf of mistaken anger, building a bridge causing the doom of Nargothrond..... whatever he did there the black shadow of Morgoth's curse drew.

The curse can be thought of as his own doing. Ill it is that the most skillful are often the swiftest to fall prey to pride. Have we not seen it with the Satan himself, or with Feanor? Wasn't kinslaying his fault? And of all the elves, the most I dislike is Feanor. All is his mistake to begin with.....

Though has anyone thought of Nienor Niniel? What happened to her? Where did the mighty waters of Teiglin and Sirion take her, ere the lands were drawn in to the tide?

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May the light of the two trees shine through every dark cloud
Loki
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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Posts: 3
Date: Dec 29, 2010
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Turin's tale and fate is something that I believe people have analyzed in and out in this thread and as well in other forums and studies. Nienor's fate is simply what we have been told : none knows where those waters take her.

I'll recommend Story of Kullervo from Kalevala to everyone to read since it's remarkably similar to Narn I Chin Hurin. It's easy to see where Tolkien got his idea to that Tale.

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xiaoshanzi
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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Posts: 3
Date: Jul 12, 2011
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for we do not know what choices we make to reach the "end". The only way to avoid what would happen is to kill yourself."

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Previous poll results (What is the 'Mightiest' weapon in Tolkiens myth?): Gurthang, blade of Turin - 28%, Narsil, sword of Elendil - 12%, Anduril, Sword of King Ellesar Aragorn - 23%, The Mace of the Witch King - 5%, Grond the dread hammer/hammer of the underworld -19%, Black axe of Gothmog - 4, Glamdring of Gandalf - 7%, Orcrist of Thorin - 1% A NEW POLL HAS BEEN ADDED TO TOLKIEN FORUMS Tolkien Forums - The Mythical world of J.R.R Tolkien