Tolkien Forums

Well Arwen, I was very excited about this topic so I wanted to take the time to research it properly. Sorry for the delay. But here we go!
We first see Tom when he saves Merry and Pip from the old man willow. When Frodo tells Tom what happened to his friend Tom says '"What'? shouted Tom Bombadil, leaping up in the air. 'Old Man Willow? Naught worse than that, eh? That can soon be mended. I know the tune for him. Old grey Willow-man! I'll freeze his marrow cold, if he don't behave himself. I'll sing his roots off. I'll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Old Man Willow!'"
The part that I find most interesting is how much of this is about singing. "I know the tune for him" and such. Remind anyone of the songs in the begining of the silmarillion from the Ainur?

And later in FotR chapter 'in the house of Tom Bombadil' Frodo bluntly asks Toms wife, Goldberry "'Fair lady!' Said Frodo again after a while. 'Tell me, if my asking does not seem foolish, wo is Tom Bombadil?'
'He is,' said Goldberry, staying her swift movements and smiling.
Frodo looked at her questioningly. 'He is, as you have seen him.' She said in answer to his look. 'He is the master of wood, water, and hill.'"
That seems like quite a bit of mastery. Wood, water, and hill? What the meaning of these three things is I do not know.
Later in the chapter is this conversation;
"'Who are you, Master?' He (Frodo) asked.
'Eh, what?' Said Tom sitting up, and his eyes glinting in the gloom. 'Dont you know my name yet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless-before the Dark Lord came from Oustside'"
Now, there are a few very important details about this. Obviously we see that Tom is very very old. And ageless it seems. The last part "before the Dark Lord came from Outside." I take it the Dark Lord mentioned is Morgoth not Sauron who was also refered to as the Dark Lord I believe. And also when he said he came from "Outside" you'll have to notice that Outside is capitalized. As in a place that was being refered to as Outside and not just saying from outside of this place, if that makes sense. Also skipping ahead to TTT, the chapter is the white rider. The quote is Gandalf saying this of Treebeard;
"' Treebeard is Fangorn, the guardian of the forest; he is the oldest of the Ents the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth'" so we see that unless Gandalf is mistaken, unlikely, Tom Bombadil is not the oldest living thing in Middle-earth, that title belongs to Treebeard. And that's all I have right now, I'll post more if and when I find it :)

In the FotR the chapter the council of Elrond they discuss if Tom could help them in their task and this follows
" 'Could we not still send messages to him and obtain his help?' Asked Erestor. 'It seems that he has a power even over the Ring.' 'No, I should not put it so.' Said Gandalf. 'Say rather that the Ring has no power over him. He is his own master. But he cannot alter the Ring itself, nor break its power over others. And now he is withdrawn into a little land, within bounds that he has set, though none can see them, waiting perhaps for a change of days, and he will not step beyond them.' "
So clearly we see that A) Tom set his bounderies, no one else. And B) he WILL not step beyond them. Not that he can't simply he will not. Does that clear that matter up?

Huan and Arwen, that clears things up! Thank you both.


Now! This also solidifies a theory of mine that I shall reveal at the end of this post.

     But first:  Tom is definitely older than Treebeard because the Spring of Arda happens about 2000 years after the Valar descend into Arda in the first couple of years in recorded times called the Valian years. In the second tier of recorded time called the Years of the Lamps; all plant life grows for the first time (Spring of Arda). Before the years of the Sun. It's easy after that to deduce that Treebeard couldn't be older than Tom. Besides I remember reading that the Dwarves and Ents were awakened by Eru about the same time, then the elves taught them to speak.

In short I think Tolkien reversed alot of things in his creation such as:
Most civilizations considered the Sun to be Masculine and in Tolkien's books the Sun is a She, the Moon is a He...Perhaps he took Mother Nature and made him a Father Nature instead. The Master of Wood, Water and Hill? Sounds like Father Nature to me.

Very interesting about Tom Bombadil setting his own boundaries. I had forgotten that part of the Council of Elrond. Thank you Huan. Now that makes more sense for my idea...I think Lady Goldberry is Niniel, Turin Turambar's sister/wife. Stay with me now...She throws herself into the river Tieglan thinking Turin dead and is never seen again. I think Tom finds her washed up in the river before the world is changed by the War of Wrath. Far fetched I know, but wouldn't that be something?

What if Tom was in Eru's song as a part of creation, just like trees or water or mountains, stones, dirt, etc.    

      I think the reason the ring has no power over him is because he simply didn't care about it. His cares were for natural things and not bobbles or trinkets. It would never enter his mind to possess it. Like Gandalf says in the Council of Elrond: "And if he were given the Ring, he would soon forget it, or most likely throw it away. Such things have no hold on his mind. He would be a most unsafe guardian; and that alone is answer enough."

Then later Galdor says: "I know little of Iarwain save the name," said Galdor, "but Glorfinel, I think, is right. Power to defy our Enemy is not in him, unless such power is in the earth itself." I found that quote to be closer to the mark when it comes to declaring the notion of Father Earth or Nature himself.

And Huan, don't be surprised when I finally say something rational. It stings a little when you do that! Lol! Just bustin' your stones buddy! Cheers

P.S. I said Father Nature, not Father Time.

No problem. I kinda took your wording and scrambled it to serve my joke. No harm done. You're a good soul. Carry on!

No. Got assessed for Pilot training in the Air Force but was denied because I had asthma past the age of eight. I do, however, come from a family of rich military history. Maybe some rubbed off

That is amazing ArwenLegolas! You have tradition of service just withing your own ranks. Sounds like a proud unit you have there and to know that your a Tolkien enthusiast to boot? I am in great company here.

Huan, but Tom called his lady "River-woman's Daughter" So how could she have been an Elleth?

Sindarin for Female Elf. You mean you do not know Sindarin Huan?

I figured everybody who is a serious student of Tolkien would learn at least some of the Elven language(s)
( Which does not mean that you are not a serious Tolkien Scholar) I guess I am a little ambitious when it comes to studying.
But if you are happy the way you are who am I to tell that you should learn Elvish, because it is by no means easy. Although, I have started a Sindarin course on the Forums several times.

I don't think that Niniel and Goldberry are the same person because Niniel would have died when she hit the water. Tom Bombadil also can't be Eru because then he would just kill Sauron without letting so many people die. If he is, and Niniel is Goldberry, that doesn't make sense because why would a god marry a mortal?