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Topic: Infertility of the Valar/Maiar

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Hobbit from Hobbiton - Rank 4
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Date: Jan 25, 2010
Infertility of the Valar/Maiar

Ohhhhh bald is so buetifull


Apart from Melian and Shelob, did any of the powers that be, do the jiggy jiggy and beget offspring ?

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Thorin Oakenshield - Rank 6
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Date: Jan 26, 2010
Originally Tolkien made the Ainur so they could have offspring. Such as Fionwe being the son of Manwe and Varda, for example. Or even Gothmog being the son of Melkor (his mother being an Ogre, I think?).

However he later abandoned this idea and did not permit Ainur to have offspring. Melian was in physical form and with Thingol, an Elf, so maybe it was only disallowed between the Ainur themselves. Shelob is not an Ainur therefore, and neither is Ungoliant, as they had offspring.

And also the Great Eagles were meant to be Maiar spirits but Tolkien wrote of them having offspring in The Lord of the Rings before he later decided Ainur could not have offspring. Thus they are not strictly Maiar spirits in terms of what Tolkien wrote, but in terms of what he wanted, I assume they still are Maiar.

That is all I know, perhaps Galin could fill us in with dates and notes and all that?

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Rohan peasant - Rank 2
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Date: Jan 26, 2010
I am a little surprised that Tolkien did not want the Ainur to procreate. I have always been under the impression that Tolkien generally thought of them as being similar to the Greek gods. If this was true the Greek gods did have offspring so why not the Ainur?

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Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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'That is all I know, perhaps Galin could fill us in with dates and notes and all that?'

Ach, I only have time for the 'Feanor' related quotes (other thread) right now. Sorry!


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Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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OK, with a bit more time...

'Originally Tolkien made the Ainur so they could have offspring. Such as Fionwe being the son of Manwe and Varda, for example. Or even Gothmog being the son of Melkor (his mother being an Ogre, I think?).'

Very early, yes, before the 1920s even, which idea -- the Valar having children -- Tolkien held on to for some time, even after finishing The Lord of the Rings. A post-Lord of the Rings text, The Annals of Aman, helps show the distinction between the Maiar and the actual offspring of the Valar: '... and the Maiar and the Sons of the Valar were arrayed as for war.' (section 6), and...

'And with them [the Maiar] are numbered also the Valarindi, the offspring of the Valar, their children begotten in Arda, yet of the race of the Ainur who were before the world; they are many and fair.' 
Annals of Aman (section 1). I'm not certain, but just from a quick look (and my memory!) I think Tolkien abandoned the notion of the Children of the Valar in the later 1950s.

'However he later abandoned this idea and did not permit Ainur to have offspring. Melian was in physical form and with Thingol, an Elf, so maybe it was only disallowed between the Ainur themselves.'

In Osanwe-kenta (c. 1959-60) it's noted: 'The great Valar do not do these things: they beget not, neither do they eat and drink, save at the high asari, in token of their lordship and indwelling of Arda, and for the blessing of the sustenance of the Children. Melkor alone of the Great became at last bound to a bodily form; but that was because of the use that he made of this in his purpose to become Lord of the Incarnate, and of the great evils that he did in the visible body.'

From this at least (including other parts of this note) it seems that the Valar could have had children, but doing so would have meant that they were to commit themselves to a 'self-arraying' approaching incarnation, which they appear not to desire. The note also states that a self-arraying tended to approach a state of incarnation especially with respect to the Maiar. It is also noted that: 'Most binding is begetting or conceiving.'


-- Edited by Galin on Friday 29th of January 2010 02:40:02 AM

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Hobbit from Hobbiton - Rank 4
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Date: Jan 28, 2010
Two innocent words , Blow and Job
however join them up and you get ......

Jobblow

So Melian is unique.....but perhaps there is a similarity between her and the Morgoth. Perhaps both became incarnate, Morgoth more so..

Melian begat Luthien
Morgoth begat.............hmmmmm

I think Morgoth certainly had the potentail...didn't he have unpure thoughts at seeing Luthien ? Dirty boy.

Anyway, the blood of Melian enriches the lineage of men.......

Who knows perhaps the blood of Morhoth degraded men......

Oh no not another orc creation debate !

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Was there a question in there somewhere filli?biggrin.gif

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Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!

Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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Date: Oct 31, 2010
More to consider perhaps biggrin

'Manwe however sent Maia spirits in Eagle form to dwell near Thangorodrim...' Note to the typescript, Annals of Aman

'... many of the Maiar robed themselves like other lesser living things, as trees, flowers, beasts. (Huan.)' Note on the page for Myths Transformed, text V

'Huan and Sorontar could be Maiar -- emissaries of Manwe. But unfortunately in The Lord of the Rings Gwaehir and Landroval are said to be descendants of Sorontar.' Myths Transformed text VIII

... these appear to hail from the late 1950s -- and then we have the description as found in Of The Ents And The Eagles as well -- again late 1950s, but may well be later according to Christopher Tolkien.


Also, immediately after noting the problem of the descendants of Thorondor (the third quote above in this post), Tolkien asks if Maiar can become Orcs -- answers yes, and then notes: '... but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force.'

But does this not imply that Maiar could have descendants? If these spirits accept permanent incarnation as Eagles, it seems to me that Gwaehir and Landroval being descendants of Thorondor should not necessarily prohibit the idea of Thorondor being a Maia -- though I certainly agree he should procreate with a female Maia as an eagle, as opposed to a regular eagle.

Thoughts?


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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Date: Oct 31, 2010
As strange as baby Ainur seem to me ... sex doesn't seem so strange ... either procreation or recreation ... Still Melian ...  maybe male Ainur are sterile ...
I mean Eru wasn't exactly happy with Aule making the fathers of dwarves ... and Tolkien casts Morgoth's lustful glances at Luthien as very bad ... but all the pairings seems to say some physical bond was there ...
What do other folks think?


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Loremaster Elf of Mirkwood - Rank 4
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Date: Nov 1, 2010

Me thinks that if Eru considered sex to be a bad thing, no creature would be capable of procreation. What is bad for the Valar must certainly be worse for the First and Second born surely. But all things must be able reproduce or else nothing would have been able to plant seed beyond creation's first Summer or else all things would have been immortal from the very start.

Aule may have been considered "the father of the Dwarves" but their making does not seem to have included a physical act of love making with a female partner. Maybe this was part Eru's objection. And Aule did repent his impatents allowing the Dwarves to be adopted by Eru and only put to sleep until the First Born should awaken.

As for Morgoth's lustful glances for Luthien be cast in a bad light by Tolkien, I should hope so. Luthien was good and noble, while Morgoth was altogether evil. Who could think that just a love by him to be a good idea.




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Tower Guard of Minas Tirith - Rank 4
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Date: Sep 23, 2011
Bilbo, I would not be so hasty to say that Ungoliant and Shelob are not Ainur. They were both discribed as 'spirits' that thook the form of giant spiders. I have yet to hear a quote that makes me think twice about this matter let alone prove them to be of another race.

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But no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom,nor devil's art nor beast-strength, could overthrow Huan of Valinor;
 
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