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Topic: Not so nice Elves

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Hobbit from Hobbiton - Rank 4
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Posts: 217
Date: Oct 6, 2009
Not so nice Elves

Me vvith the Vicars vvife...oh my.....!

Anyvvay...some have said some things about ;

Hovv elves are an inspiration
That elves are good and an inspiration to men.
Elves are so la de da hoop de da
Oh to be an vvander through the tvvighlight.....


Novv Eol vvas an elf...he vvasn't all nice, vvas he !
Took Turgons sister as his vvife .....not all against her vvill (cheeky minx)

He vvas an Avari and did not recognise the authority of the exiles.......

Is this true of the Avari...are they not so squeeky clean
VVhat happened to the Avari ?

Love Light and Peace
Loremaster Elf of Mirkwood - Rank 4
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Posts: 265
Date: Oct 7, 2009
The Avari were the Elves that did not respond to the summons of the Valar and make the journey into the West with the Elves that would become the Noldor and all that. Not a bad thing when Eru gave the Valar an earful about leaving the Elves alone and where He (Eru) had put them. They were happy and content to reside in Middle-earth so they were the wilder woodelves of the earth. They inhabited the mountains north of Mirkwood as well as Mirkwood itself. They were the ones who would propbably never sail West and would reside in Middle-earth fading in body until the End of Days. They are calle the Moriquendi...the Dark Elves. Not because they are any more evil then any other of the Elven kind. It only means that they never saw the light of the Two Trees of Valinor.

Of course the Elves were "not so squeeky clean". Look and Feanor and his sons and what kind of havoc they reeked on Middle Earth. But as Tolkien says..."they are Elves and thats not a bad thing."

-- Edited by Anorlas on Wednesday 7th of October 2009 02:01:37 AM

I'll not bid the stars farewell
Thorin Oakenshield - Rank 6
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Date: Oct 7, 2009
We never hear of truly evil Elves. Feanor and his sons rebelled against the Valar, but they did so because they believed the Valar were the ones in the wrong for not taking on Morgoth straight away. Feanor and co were more 'wayward', I suppose, but definitely not evil.

Maeglin was probably the worst I can think of. Not sure he was actually evil, however. He had a pretty big threat hanging over his head.

You want it for Yourself!
Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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Date: Oct 8, 2009
Don't forget Eol was an Elda though, not an Avar (to use the singular form of each). Some Avarin details and history can be found in the linguistic essay Quendi And Eldar (or part one of this post) where a number of things are said about them, or Eol, including:

A) Some Avari ultimately migrated to Beleriand (after initially refusing the Great March of course).

B) Eol was an Avar

C) The Avari in general remained secretive, hostile to the Eldar, and untrustworthy, and dwelt in hidden places in the deeper woods or in caves

D) Lindarin elements in Western Avari however, were friendly to the Eldar D1 even later merging in Eriador and in the Vale of Anduin

E) The Noldor asserted that most of theTeleri were at heart Avari

F) The Teleri asserted that most of the Noldor in Aman were Avari at heart, returning to Middle-earth when they discovered their mistake.

G) The term Moriquendi may have had a (very) early: 'tinge of scorn, implying that such folk were not averse to the shadows of Melkor upon Middle-earth.' It is said here that later the Noldor modified their use of the terms Calaquendi and Moriquendi, which was offensive to the Sindar -- Moriquendi then did not apply to the Sindar.

Note 9 adds that the implication that the Moerbin (a Sindarin word, sort of meant 'Dark-elves' but also applied to other incarnates) were allies of Morgoth, or at least of dubious loyalty was, however, untrue with regard to the Avari.


However, later texts state that (compare the following to the same colour above):

A) 'It is doubtful if any of the Avari ever reached Beleriand' 

B) In very late work Eol is one of the Eldar

D1) The Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien 'are specifically declared to be descended from the Telerin Elves who remained in the Vale of Anduin.' They are here in origin Eldar (all of them in the Third Age?)

G) 'Elves of Darkness' 'in no way implied any evil, or subordination to Morgoth'.

So there are a few things either altered, or left confusing, by comparison to text dated later than Quendi And Eldar (the list is not meant to be exhaustive incidentally). In the Foreword to The Peoples of Middle-Earth CJRT will note that sometimes it remains an open question as to whether or not some of the seeming departures from earlier work represent revision, or his father writing largely from memory. In any event, in 'part two' of this post the examples A and G are from Of Dwarves And Men, B is noted by CJRT in notes to Quendi And Eldar, and D1 is according to a late etymological discussion published in Unfinished Tales.

The reason I bring up D1 is that it makes me wonder if there are Avari mixed in with the Silvan Elves of The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, especially in Lorien, noting that the Silvan Elves of Lorien are generally said to sail Over Sea in The Lord of the Rings, and in the late text Amroth And Nimrodel, Amroth's explanation to Nimrodel suggests (to my mind anyway) that the Silvan Elves of Lorien made the Great Journey at least (even if they did not go as far as others).

In any case, interesting that Tolkien called the West Elves Eldar in Appendix F, but yet did not assign 'Avari' to the East Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien.

-- Edited by Galin on Thursday 8th of October 2009 12:18:18 AM

Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Posts: 2960
Date: Oct 8, 2009
Thank you!
This is a nice piece of scholarship.
May I  copy and add this to the "Basic Elf" thread?


Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit
Called or uncalled, God is present

Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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Date: Oct 8, 2009
Sure Bear... if I can stop fiddling with the wording. LOL!

I feel like something here might be off, but maybe not... if it needs fixing later we can let you know.


Tom Bombadil
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Posts: 1886
Date: Oct 12, 2009
Good work Balin, nice work


Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!
Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow!
Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!

Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Posts: 2161
Date: Oct 13, 2009
More people call him Balin than Galin.biggrin.gif


Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!

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