I think the real question is: Could Gollum have continued on in life after the Ring was destroyed? His fate was so intertwined with that of the Ring after his long ownership of it, that I think he may have done the old disappear-oo along with Sauron and the Ringwraiths, or else died in complete despair. It was alluded to many times in the book that the only thing that kept Gollum alive was his need for the Ring. I think if Gollum had not fallen into the abyss with the Ring, he might have leapt in after it.
That said, I don't have any quotes or references to back that up (as usual), so someone will probably come along to prove me wrong.
I don't think the Valar can be blamed as well. It was a Maia that made the One Ring. Smeagol didn't have to kill for it. Or use it in sneaky, mean ways once he had it. Eru has his eyes on Arda through the watchful care of Manwe, Albereth, and all those Valar and Maia who love and care about Arda and all of it's inhabitants. But there is free will. After the breaking of Beleriand, the Valar swore never to interfer in such a way again. But neither are the inhabitants left completely alone. Mithrandir often talks to Frodo about "other powers at work". These are seen to be working in counter balance of the evil perpetrated by Melkor, Sauron and his mechinations. So it is Smeagol's own weak, mean nature that causes his own misery. It is the mercy, pity, and love of 3 other Hobbits that brings the One Ring to its destruction with Smealgol's unwitting help. But it is up to the people's of Middle-earth who has the choice to help in it's destruction by fighting evil or their choice in trying to deter it's destruction by siding with Sauron. But it is all free choice.
Free will was a bit negated with the ring, though. Even Galadriel and Gandalf feared it's using them to fufil it's and ultimately it's master, Sauron's, evil purposes. Poor Smeagle was "doomed" from the beginning. Poor Deagol just had to go!! And if poor Bilbo or poor Frodo would have kept it they too would have been doomed to the fate of the ring.
-- Edited by lomoduin on Sunday 4th of October 2009 03:26:48 PM
All, I think Glorfindel 1235 has a point. This has been discussed in depth. But on the other hand the opinions and observations of Filli, The Secret Fire, Anorlas, and lomoduin are unique to themselves and, as Forum members, entitled to their space. And, very selfishly on my part, I want to read what they have to say. Perhaps, if we could direct and link specifically to those "fate and doom threads" the conversation could be expanded and enriched...but looking at the beginning this thread (Poor Smeagol) we can see that it has its unique flavor and disposition... So... "Poor Smeagol !!!" You have got to be kidding! This treacherous carrion eating murderer deserves a bullet in the head and should be tossed into fiery heart of the Mountain of Doom...he is a pathological schizophrenic monster kept alive by his addiction to a malevolent, soul-eating instrument of the profoundest evil. Give him a break? My backside!!! There are even rumors of him stealing and eating babies! He sold Frodo to a blood sucking arachnid monster. And Frodo wasn't the first!!! Oh sure! Tolkien finds a way to take him from "The Hobbit" and integrate him into "The Lord of the Rings." But that doesn't mean we should pity him. Looking to cast your pity on someone...try the Steward of Gondor and his sons. Driven mad by Sauron through the Palantir, so mad he tries to cremate his wounded son, Faramir. Sends his son Boromir on a fools errand to seek an artifact that eventually leads to his madness and dishonor trying to take the One Ring from Frodo...so guilt ridden he commits "soldier suicide" against terrible odds trying make up for his treachery. And this great Steward goes over the edge by setting himself on fire... Now there is a place for pity...hubris almost destroys the West. "Poor Smeagol." He dies because he made on promise by the One Ring to be loyal on the penalty that if tried to take it he would be thrown into the Cracks of Doom...which happened. Poor Hitler! Poor Charles Manson! Poor Dracula! Not me good folks! I wouldn't try to "catch him". Frodo saves him from the arrows of Faramir...noble Frodo...his blind misguided trust almost hands the One Ring to Sauron through Shelob...only the realistic and loyal Sam...who never buys the "Poor Smeagol" stick..saves the day...pity Sam if you want...a loyal loving friend...set up and betrayed by "Poor Smeagol." You get my point... Gollum would not get added to my "punch in the mouth" list. I'm too good with a knife...Gollum sushi for Shelob!
(Filli...I love those sticks!!! How about you?)
-- Edited by Bear on Tuesday 6th of October 2009 01:40:14 AM
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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit Called or uncalled, God is present
You have got to be kidding! This treacherous carrion eating murderer deserves a bullet in the head and should be tossed into fiery heart of the Mountain of Doom...he is a pathological schizophrenic monster kept alive by his addiction to a malevolent, soul-eating instrument of the profoundest evil. Give him a break? My backside!!! There are even rumors of him stealing and eating babies! He sold Frodo to a blood sucking arachnid monster. And Frodo wasn't the first!!! Oh sure! Tolkien finds a way to take him from "The Hobbit" and integrate him into "The Lord of the Rings." But that doesn't mean we should pity him. Looking to cast your pity on someone...try the Steward of Gondor and his sons. Driven mad by Sauron through the Palantir, so mad he tries to cremate his wounded son, Faramir. Sends his son Boromir on a fools errand to seek an artifact that eventually leads to his madness and dishonor trying to take the One Ring from Frodo...so guilt ridden he commits "soldier suicide" against terrible odds trying make up for his treachery. And this great Steward goes over the edge by setting himself on fire... Now there is a place for pity...hubris almost destroys the West. "Poor Smeagol." He dies because he made on promise by the One Ring to be loyal on the penalty that if tried to take it he would be thrown into the Cracks of Doom...which happened. Poor Hitler! Poor Charles Manson! Poor Dracula! Not me good folks! I wouldn't try to "catch him". Frodo saves him from the arrows of Faramir...noble Frodo...his blind misguided trust almost hands the One Ring to Sauron through Shelob...only the realistic and loyal Sam...who never buys the "Poor Smeagol" stick..saves the day...pity Sam if you want...a loyal loving friend...set up and betrayed by "Poor Smeagol." You get my point... Gollum would not get added to my "punch in the mouth" list. I'm too good with a knife...Gollum sushi for Shelob!
(Filli...I love those sticks!!! How about you?)
-- Edited by Bear on Tuesday 6th of October 2009 01:40:14 AM
Yeouch. It is interesting that you feel so strongly about Gollum. He just doesn't evoke that kind of reaction in me. I perceive him differently. I don't see Gollum as pure evil. He was definitely a terrible, nasty shell of a person who deserved death many times over. Yet I never got the impression that Gollum willingly chose evil. I perceived him more as someone with an incredibly weak will who consistently made the wrong decisions, a chaotic negative force whom anyone who cared for their own well being would do well to avoid. I did not really feel that he ever was deserving of hatred or malice beyond whatever might happen to him as a result of the consistently awful choices he made in his life.
And chiming in some agreement as to what you said about the nature of this thread: I know that sometimes thread topics/themes get repeated. Sometimes things have already been discussed in depth. But this message board will wither away and die if people aren't encouraged to discuss the things that interest them. There are already less than probably 20 of us who post at all. I think any and all thoughtful posting should be encouraged. When I find a topic that doesn't interest me, I just don't read it so that others can have a chance to discuss matters that are in my own mind, already settled.
Hovv evil vvas Smeagol prior to "accidently" finding the ring ?
Seems to me that he vvasn't and vvas ensared by a povver, so much greater than his ovvn.
Cause and effect...no ring , no Gollum
Nasty bad Valar...vve hatess them...
Fated to dies me love...nasty nasty bad Valar
Didn't clear up their messes....no my love......didn't look hard enough did they...no me love....vatch him grovv again, didn't they...............poor Smeagol..GOLLUM, GOLLUM
-- Edited by Filli on Tuesday 6th of October 2009 05:50:10 AM
No, he may not have been evil, but he was sneaky, mean spirited. He spied on people and tattled on them. Or maybe had his own version of blackmail going. He wasn't a very nice Hobbit. Even his own grandmother kicked him out of his clan. Even if they were wilder Hobbits, I wonder how often that happened?
He was mean spirited, perhaps, but thats as far as I would take it. Everything bad he did thereafter he did because of the power of the Ring.
The whole story of Gollum in LOTR is written by Tolkien with the intent for people to pity Gollum at the very end of the book, while loathing him up to that point.
It penetrates very deeply, and is the most emotional plot in the entire story. I am surprised, Bear, that you didn't take this view, as (I think) you deal with the emotional aspects of people as part of your job?
You can view Gollum in two ways:
See him as a nasty creature that did horrible things and he deserved all he got.
Or you can view him as a weak willed Hobbit which got hold of something far beyond his power and lived an agonisingly long life, which was ultimately cursed and doomed, and he did everything he could to survive.
The Ring was creating a different person inside Gollum, a different person than what Smeagol inherently was. And over time it mastered Smeagol and his life wasn't in his control from then on.
I am not sure if any of you have seen Stargate SG:1, but to those of you who have, Gollum was like a host for a Goa'uld.
Mr. Baggins, Spend eight hours over two weeks with someone who rapes their four year old daughter. Or someone who kills their baby because they hate changing diapers. Or holding the hand of a mother while her child's murderer is lethally injected. You forget yourself Sir... Comparing what I write on a FANTASY WEBSITE to my real life...and then reprimanding me...good grief man...I suggest you stand back from judging me or my profession... This is one Bear who would eat you for lunch...
I'm glad you see it differently than I do...that is a good thing. I'm glad you have compassion for the character. And I'm glad that you see how "addiction" (in Gollum's case to the Ring) can warp a personality...but trust me...the addict is responsible for the crimes they commit...
I would like to put a hole in the theory that "The Ring" made him do it...the Ring left him remember...it didn't want to go back to him...he was told that if he touched it again he would be thrown into the Cracks of Doom...and he was...so it wasn't the Ring that "made" him do anything...he was a monster and proved it from his earliest beginnings...Anorlas is right...kicked out by his own Grandmother...come on...
I am also glad for your voice is heard here. Your cross reference's to "Stargate SG: 1" is unique...enriching the discussion...
I know you didn't deliberately mean to offend me...We have found ways to overcome our differences before... Let us continue our friendship...
And you might want to look again at what I wrote on this thread...especially the part about Fili and the sticks...it meaning that what I wrote was meant to arouse passionate answers...more than just advancing a point of view... Please don't use my profession to reprimand me again. Still your friend, Bear
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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit Called or uncalled, God is present
Bear wrote: Mr. Baggins, Spend eight hours over two weeks with someone who rapes their four year old daughter. Or someone who kills their baby because they hate changing diapers. Or holding the hand of a mother while her child's murderer is lethally injected. You forget yourself Sir... Comparing what I write on a FANTASY WEBSITE to my real life...and then reprimanding me...good grief man...I suggest you stand back from judging me or my profession... This is one Bear who would eat you for lunch...
I'm glad you see it differently than I do...that is a good thing. I'm glad you have compassion for the character. And I'm glad that you see how "addiction" (in Gollum's case to the Ring) can warp a personality...but trust me...the addict is responsible for the crimes they commit...
I would like to put a hole in the theory that "The Ring" made him do it...the Ring left him remember...it didn't want to go back to him...he was told that if he touched it again he would be thrown into the Cracks of Doom...and he was...so it wasn't the Ring that "made" him do anything...he was a monster and proved it from his earliest beginnings...Anorlas is right...kicked out by his own Grandmother...come on...
I am also glad for your voice is heard here. Your cross reference's to "Stargate SG: 1" is unique...enriching the discussion...
I know you didn't deliberately mean to offend me...We have found ways to overcome our differences before... Let us continue our friendship...
And you might want to look again at what I wrote on this thread...especially the part about Fili and the sticks...it meaning that what I wrote was meant to arouse passionate answers...more than just advancing a point of view... Please don't use my profession to reprimand me again. Still your friend, Bear
I would have to disagree with you there Bear.
The vital difference between the examples you list at the beginning of your post to Gollum is that there was not a certain magic Ring created by the Second Incarnation of Evil involved.
The Ring did indeed make Smeagol do those things. It caused Gollum to become obsessed with it, it was taking over his mind. We see how quickly Boromir turned to evil, and he did not even have the Ring in his sight most of the time, let alone his possession. And I think we would agree that Boromir was mightier than Gollum.
And, secondly, he was only shunned by his relations after he acquired the Ring. Its then we see him become truly mean.
I have to agree...I believe Gollum is the example of something weak willed and small caught up in something far too big for him to cope with, and his life is fated to be miserable and wretched. Its apparent Tolkien's overall aim was for people to pity Gollum as well, as we see by two notable quotes nearer the end of the story (the one where Gollum is very near redemption outside Shelob's Lair, and the other passage on the slopes of Mount Doom). And don't forget Gandalf himself, who often seems to represent Tolkien's own views, says Gollum is to be pitied.
EDIT: I am going to post those quotes I mentioned:
I am sorry, said Frodo. But I am frightened; and I do not feel any pity for Gollum. You have not seen him, Gandalf broke in. No, and I dont want to, said Frodo. I cant understand you. Do you mean to say that you, and the Elves, have let him live on after all those horrible deeds? Now at any rate he is as bad as an Orc, and just an enemy. He deserves death. Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it. And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many - yours not least. In any case we did not kill him: he is very old and very wretched. The Wood-elves have him in prison, but they treat him with such kindness as they can find in their wise hearts.
It is clear Frodo at first doesn't believe Gollum should be pitied. But in the end, he changes his mind, as we know. And anyway - here are those quotes:
Sam sat propped against the stone, his head dropping sideways and his breathing heavy. In his lap lay Frodo's head, drowned deep in sleep; upon his white forehead lay one of Sam's brown hands, and the other lay softly upon his master's breast. Peace was in both their faces. Gollum looked at them. A strange expression passed over his lean hungry face. The gleam faded from his eyes, and they went dim and grey, old and tired. A spasm of pain seemed to twist him, and he turned away, peering back up towards the pass, shaking his head, as if engaged in some interior debate. Then he came back, and slowly putting out a trembling hand, very cautiously he touched Frodo's knee but almost the touch was a caress. For a fleeting moment, could one of the sleepers have seen him, they would have thought that they beheld an old weary hobbit, shrunken by the years that had carried him far beyond his time, beyond friends and kin, and the fields and streams of youth, an old starved pitiable thing.But at that touch Frodo stirred and cried out softly in his sleep, and immediately Sam was wide awake. The first thing he saw was Gollum `pawing at master,' as he thought. `Hey you!' he said roughly. `What are you up to?' 'Nothing, nothing,' said Gollum softly. `Nice Master!' `I daresay,' said Sam. 'But where have you been to sneaking off and sneaking back, you old villain? 'Gollum withdrew himself, and a green glint flickered under his heavy lids. Almost spider-like he looked now, crouched back on his bent limbs, with his protruding eyes. The fleeting moment had passed, beyond recall.
And the last quote:
Dont kill us, he wept. Dont hurt us with nassty cruel steel! Let us live, yes, live just a little longer. Lost lost! Were lost. And when Precious goes well die, yes, die into the dust. He clawed up the ashes of the path with his long fleshless fingers. Dusst! he hissed. Sams hand wavered. His mind was hot with wrath and the memory of evil. It would be just to slay this treacherous, murderous creature, just and many times deserved; and also it seemed the only safe thing to do. But deep in his heart there was something that restrained him: he could not strike this thing lying in the dust, forlorn, ruinous, utterly wretched. He himself, though only for a little while, had borne the Ring, and now dimly he guessed the agony of Gollums shrivelled mind and body, enslaved to that Ring, unable to find peace or relief ever in life again. But Sam had no words to express what he felt. Those quotes make me sad. Even Sam, a devout hater of Gollum, eventually pities him.
You heartless Bear!
-- Edited by Glorfindel1235 on Thursday 8th of October 2009 10:42:07 PM
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
Glorfindel wrote: _____________________________________________________________________ The Ring did indeed make Smeagol do those things. It caused Gollum to become obsessed with it, it was taking over his mind. We see how quickly Boromir turned to evil, and he did not even have the Ring in his sight most of the time, let alone his possession. And I think we would agree that Boromir was mightier than Gollum.
And, secondly, he was only shunned by his relations after he acquired the Ring. Its then we see him become truly mean. ______________________________________________________________________
This may be exactly true, Glorfindel. According to a letter written by Tolkien dated 1956 he describes Gollum this way: "The dominion of the Ring was much too strong for the mean soul of Smeagol. But he would have never had to endure it if he had not become a mean sort of thief before it crossed his path."
in another letter written in either 1958 or 1959 Tolkien describes the scene between Deagol and Smeagol this way:" ...and a Hobbit was more readily flattered and delighted by an unexpectedly "good" or desirable present then offended by a customery token of family good-will. A trace of this can be seen in the account of Smeagol and Deagol modified by the individual characters of these rather miserable specimens. Deagol, evidently a relative (as no doubt all the members of the small community were), had already given his customary present to Smeagol, although they probably set out on their expedition v. early in the morning. Being a mean little soul he grudged it. Smeagol, being meaner and greedier, tried to use the "birthday" as an excuse for an act of tyranny."
At the bottom of the page it states that Gollum would only have to give a tribute gift to his 'grandmother' fish actually caught by Deagol.
Smeagol was not a nice little Stoor. Already a sneak and a thief.
Glorfindel 1235, Ok! You convinced me! After all Gandalf, Frodo, and Tolkien can't be wrong. Thank you for the references... Who can argue with the facts...
A chastised and repentant, Bear
PS. If Gollum accidentally trips and falls...200ft into a volcanic fissure at the Cracks of Doom...I was home with my wife and kittens...I swear!
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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit Called or uncalled, God is present
Alas I haven't made my point...vvith all your jibber jabbering..you plinkity plonks.
My point vvas, Gollum vvas fated and allovved to die by the very povvers vvho might of saved him.
No ship for the vvest for him...oh no....a fall into a fiery death.
Sam has the ring for tvventy minutes and gets his ticket.
Poor Smeagol cares for the ring for a thousand years and doesn't even get a vvhiff of thanks.
vvhat do the vvest do, send five old men out to clear up their mess, four of vvhich fail or go mental and the last dies, gets re-branded and sent back to finish the job.
Seems to me that the lords of the vvest could do vvith some soft skill cynergy training focussing on a bias tovvards customer satisfaction runnning on a touching base, bluesky thinking basis.
Filli, Oh! So its the fault of the Valar not Smeagol. Those nasty superbeings set poor Gollum up to murder and betray. Oh I get it. It was Eru's fault...not Gollums...who used the ring to steal babies and kill and eat orcs. And Frodo and Sam, who had the ring but didn't murder and betray, they should have got the same come uppance...or Gollum should have got the same trip to the West...maybe Shelob should get a reward for putting up her webs? Those webs were strong and sticky...she blocked some dangerous paths you know... And The Witchking...killed by Eowyn...Angmar a poor victim of militant feminism... I get it now Filli... The Valar are such bad beings...imagine their nerve sending Gandalf back from the dead...how mean! Bear, PS...I got the sticks thing...
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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit Called or uncalled, God is present
Blah! Smeagol was a mean spirited little tyrant by choice and demeanor. That had nothing to do with the Valor nor the Ring. We don't know what will happen at the End of Days when Gollum has to stand before Eru. Maybe the kindness that Frodo showed him and the love that was growing in Gollum for Frodo and what he had to endure for holding the Ring for so long will be telling and Eru will have as much mercy or more like Gandalf did. But Gollum was a slimy little sneak thief by his own choice.
Anorlas wrote:This may be exactly true, Glorfindel. According to a letter written by Tolkien dated 1956 he describes Gollum this way: "The dominion of the Ring was much too strong for the mean soul of Smeagol. But he would have never had to endure it if he had not become a mean sort of thief before it crossed his path."
in another letter written in either 1958 or 1959 Tolkien describes the scene between Deagol and Smeagol this way:" ...and a Hobbit was more readily flattered and delighted by an unexpectedly "good" or desirable present then offended by a customery token of family good-will. A trace of this can be seen in the account of Smeagol and Deagol modified by the individual characters of these rather miserable specimens. Deagol, evidently a relative (as no doubt all the members of the small community were), had already given his customary present to Smeagol, although they probably set out on their expedition v. early in the morning. Being a mean little soul he grudged it. Smeagol, being meaner and greedier, tried to use the "birthday" as an excuse for an act of tyranny."
At the bottom of the page it states that Gollum would only have to give a tribute gift to his 'grandmother' fish actually caught by Deagol.
Smeagol was not a nice little Stoor. Already a sneak and a thief.
I think there is a difference between being mean and going into cradles to eat babies.
I think alot of people can be mean at times, some more than others. But to become the wicked thing Gollum became is quite a different story.
From what Tolkien writes about Smeagol.....the word "mean" hardly discribes what he was on his way to becoming even before Deagol ever found the Ring.
I don't know if this will help. Filli, but I just had a thought. What if taking the Ring from Deagol was Gollum's salvation? He was alone according to Tolkien he was an orphan, unloved and maybe through his own actions unlovable. But through the actions of Bilbo and Frodo he would come to know pity and compassion at last. He come to love Frodo is only for a short time. He endured the domination of the Ring for centuries and would, in the end, die for it. But he was, at the end of the day, a ring bearer. So maybe at The End of Days he would stand in front of Eru and Valar and know the love he was denied in his life time.
-- Edited by Anorlas on Saturday 10th of October 2009 12:42:53 AM
It's a good thing I'm not the Eru he will stand before. As romantic as that notion may be. I still think a criminal/villan should suffer for his/her crimes.
He did suffer greatly for more years then any Hobbit should have ever had to. Gandalf himself spoke of it. It is more then just a "romantic notion" I think. It was Gandalf who gently repremanded Frodo's horror at what Gollum had become. It was Gandalf who said that because of the pity and compassion that stayed Bilbo's hand, and would in the end, give Frodo some measure of the same towards Gollum. Towards the end of the quest, Gollum would give a glimmer of the love and devotion he might have been capable of if Sam's compassion had been stirred sooner and stronger. Even Tolkien wrote that in the end, if Gollum's love for Frodo had endured he probably would have thrown himself and the Ring willingly into the Crack of Doom for Frodo's sake.
Gandalf "felt" that Gollum had a part to play in the fate of the One Ring and he was the wisest of the Istari. If he, as a lesser spirit of Valinor, can show such gentle knowing, how much greater is Eru's and the Valar going to be. Gandalf says that Frodo cannot judge Gollum, and neither can we.
-- Edited by Anorlas on Monday 12th of October 2009 04:12:17 PM
While I agree that the nobility of Gandalfs compassion and Bilbo and Frodo's pity can not be questioned their great deeds do not excuse his evil, black-hearted ones.
No, I agree, he is not excused at all. He was a nasty little get and he dug himself a hole as dark and as deep as any one possibly could. But throughout the story people wanted to give Gollum a piece of his own medicine and each time the hand was stayed. He had a part to play. A power of good was watching out for him as "It" has watched over and guarded the hand of Bilbo in the dark. Many a wise person has written that true justice can only be metted out when balanced with true understanding and compassion. In the heat of passion, understandably, this is something we mere mortals have a very hard time doing. We want the quilty to pay, and pay hard. But in this we ourselves have to be very careful. In letting our anger rule us, we can fall into a deeper fault. But Eru and the Valar are not subject to nor ruled by blind passion, hatred, anger, pure disgust, not by any of it. Gollum can thank his dark twisted heart for that.
Even Sam, a devout hater of Gollum, eventually pities him.
