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Topic: Fourth age- speculative

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Hobbit from Hobbiton - Rank 4
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Date: Aug 4, 2009
Fourth age- speculative

Hi all !

I've read that J.R.R, concieved a fourth age...where Aragorns son takes on the forces of evil.

But who is the baddie...........

To throw a curve ball......I'd go for Teleporno !

Driven slowly mad by the angst of Galadriel departing, he turns his venom against the"age of man" and gathers like minded, bitter elves. Blaming the age of man for all his and his kins ills.


Over to you guys

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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There is a tale called 'The New Shadow', which takes place about a hundred years into the Fourth Age, but Tolkien discontinued it, he found it sinister and depressing (but he later renewed his interest in it). You can find it in 'The People of Middle-earth'. Its basically about evil reawkening among Men.

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Rohirrim of Edoras - Rank 4
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Teleporno?? Am I being a dirty mind or is that a real character that I've never heard of?

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Tom Bombadil
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Date: Aug 9, 2009
Yes Iomodium, get your mind out of the gutter( Just said in response to your jest)

The name is composed of telepe and orno (Primitive Elvish ornâ "uprising, tall")

Teleporno is Sindarin for Celeborn


According to Wikipedia originally, Tolkien intended Sindarin Celeborn to mean "Silver-tree", but the etymology "Silver-tall" appears in Tolkien's latest philological writings[2].

Celeborn, was said in some of the last writings to be a Teler(i) of Valinor named Teleporno, meaning silver-tree. In these later writings, he journeyed from Valinor with Galadriel. Because in these late writings he was a prince of the Teleri, it is possible that he was a son or grandson of Olwë.

References
J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The Peoples of Middle-earth p.347
p.266
Retrieved from "http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Teleporno"

However, I like to see how Fili is going to place Celeborn in the spot of a baddie. In the book he does not come over as very bright.

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Soldier of Beleriand - Rank 3
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Nope, it's a real name, but I couldn't find much background on it. From the Encyclopedia of Arda:

"Galadriel's consort Celeborn took his name from the Sindarin language, but we have a few rare cases of the same name translated into a High-elven language (in this case, Telerin) as Teleporno. This variation of his name seems to belong to a tradition that wasn't ultimately incorporated into The Silmarillion (in which Celeborn originated as one of the Teleri, rather than among the Sindar), and so it is doubtful the name was ever applied directly to the Elf himself.

A more likely use for the name, though unattested by Tolkien, would be for the White Tree of Tol Eressëa. In Middle-earth, it was referred to in Sindarin as Celeborn ('silver tree'), but the Telerin form Teleporno would seem quite appropriate for use by the Elves of the Lonely Isle."

Just in case you care. I have to admit I snickered a little when I read that name for the first time too.

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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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All,
There are all sorts of Freudian twists in this 4th Age speculation.
Creativity, as it is usually does, comes from subliminal and subconscious areas which include the erotic.  But the words subliminal and subconscious also mean below the surface.
Which makes me wonder whether you folks aren't victims of our famous pot stirring, curve-ball throwing, and beloved imp, Mr. Filli.
Even so I see that resources of the Tolkien Gateway and Encyclopedia of Arda definitely enrich the discussion.
I like the idea of "a dark elf" conspiracy, but I have a hard time laying it on Celeborn. who I believe ended up in Rivendell, and then finally did go into the west.

However my brain takes me to the place where the Elven King who imprisoned the dwarves in "The Hobbit" could be influenced by "Blue Wizards" from the East, released now, in the 4th Age, because of the fall of Sauron.
There is room for all sorts of sub-plots of how Sauron used the power of the two blue corrupt maiar, Alatar and Pallando, (weakened and eventually seduced by Sauron), to sway eastern tribes of men to the Dark Lord's cause.  As Aragorn brings the defeated eastern tribes to the light they expell the blue wizards who then ensnare the elves near Mirkwood. 
I envision battles with the Lonely Mountain, The Glittering Caves, and enslaving spiders of Mirkwood. and even enslaving orcs and goblins of the Misty Mountains.

One of the fun things about this speculation thing is the challenge of trying to settle ones self into the creative vein that Tolkien had that was part of his psyche and (dare I say) soul.
What do you think?
Bear


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Rohirrim of Edoras - Rank 4
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While I was genuinely wondering about the name, I do have to admit that I can completely understand why Tolkien went with Celeborn. I do think that he gets a short stick in the tales, however. As a strong personality and a female, I don't think I could be happy with a male as my partner if he was weaker or milder than I am. I would not hold him in respect and I don't know one single male that can stand a female's pity. My point being, Galadriel is a very strong female character and has grand ambitions. I see Celeborn as being able to not only support her ambition and will but also empower her and hold her up when she is weak.

I'm glad that it wasn't just Fili being... squibby? Did I get it right, Fili? lol

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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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lomoduin,
I am not sure of the male/female dynamics with elves. But there are some rich areas with Melian and Thingol, Beren and Luthien, Arwen and Aragorn.
If we are looking for the strongest male/female we will have an interesting discussion.
Bear


-- Edited by Bear on Sunday 9th of August 2009 06:29:25 AM

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Soldier of Beleriand - Rank 3
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I think we are all aware Filli can be a little off the wall, but it's probably okay to humor him from time to time. I can't take everything 100% seriously all the time anyway so the occasional humorous statement or inquiry is fine with me.

If we are going to discuss who is the strongest male/female character, we have a lot of things to consider:

1. What makes a character "strong"? Should they be strong physically, emotionally, spiritually? Should they be extraordinarily intelligent or wise?

2. Race. This would be very dicey territory in real life, but in the world of Tolkien, each race is given different strengths and tendencies. Some races are immortal, meaning that by virtue of living much longer than mortal races, they have had a chance to obtain more knowledge and wisdom about the ways of the world.  Is it fair to compare an Elf to a Man in terms of how wise they are?

3. Gender dynamics. Are we looking for males and females that fit Western gender stereotypes and fulfill them well, or are looking for males and females that DON'T fulfill those stereotypes? Eowyn, for example.

4.  The character's contributions. What has this character done that impressed us so much?  Are great deeds necessarily, or simply small acts of kindness and understanding? How have they shown their mettle?  I know that I personally consider a few Tolkien characters to be role models for my own life - I'd love to be as wise as Gandalf, as mentally strong as Galadriel, as brave as Eowyn, and as witty as Bilbo.

Just some things to consider.



-- Edited by The Secret Fire on Sunday 9th of August 2009 11:59:05 AM

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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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The Secret Fire and All,
Yes I think we all love Filli and his sense of humor.  I have enjoyed and been baited by him myself.
Look at the wonderful discussions we are having because of his comments and questions.
Give the man a trophy!!!


Where we are now is a different topic than 4th Age speculation.
We arrived here because of  "a dark elf" scenario that Filli posted using Celeborn as becoming a sociopath after his loss of Galadriel to the West.  After many contradicting opinions and explanations (including a visit with the titillating "Teleporno")
lomoduin expressed the opinion that Galadriel and Celeborn had reinforcing and complementing strengths and weaknesses.  I offered a few more Elven (human) couples to continue exploring the dynamics of Elven male/female relationships with strong female characters.
The Secret Fire laid out a formula to continue that discussion
Perhaps we should create another thread which explores Tolkien's creation of strong female characters.

To The Secret Fires posting on the morning of August 9th, 2009.
Your points are well taken.
I believe it was Socrates who said he was willing to debate (discuss) any topic, if first his opponent would define their terms.
The four criteria you have listed would be an excellent way "to define our terms".
And by paraphrasing your words here is a possibility the appropriate statement to start the discussion.

(with apologies to The Secret Fire)
"Discuss who is the strongest male/female character."
We have a lot of things to consider:
*What makes a character "strong"?
*Race: strengths, weaknesses, specific characteristics
*Gender dynamics.
*The character's contributions.


What say ye all?


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Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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To get back to Celeborn for a moment; as quoted above, The Encyclopedia of Arda states:

"Galadriel's consort Celeborn took his name from the Sindarin language, but we have a few rare cases of the same name translated into a High-elven language (in this case, Telerin) as Teleporno. This variation of his name seems to belong to a tradition that wasn't ultimately incorporated into The Silmarillion (in which Celeborn originated as one of the Teleri, rather than among the Sindar), and so it is doubtful the name was ever applied directly to the Elf himself."

It was not only not incorporated into the 1977 Silmarillion, but Tolkien himself had already published that Celeborn was Sindarin.

"A more likely use for the name, though unattested by Tolkien, would be for the White Tree of Tol Eressëa. In Middle-earth, it was referred to in Sindarin as Celeborn ('silver tree'), but the Telerin form Teleporno would seem quite appropriate for use by the Elves of the Lonely Isle."


Hmmm, unless I've missed something, I do not think the Teleri necessarily had a White Tree on Eressea (as far as I remember). Teleporno is a draft name that goes with a draft history, and I don't see much reason to try and give it a place in the internal history of Middle-earth, considering Celeborn the Sinda. Celeborn the person and the tree work fine in my opinion (Morgoth's Ring relates): '... and his seedling was named Celeborn in Eressea, and Nimloth in Numenor, the gift of the Eldar.'



As an aside, the implication (at least) from The Lord of the Rings is that Galathilion is the name of the Tree in Eressea. Just as a possibly interesting tidbit anyway.



-- Edited by Galin on Sunday 9th of August 2009 08:59:01 PM

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Hobbit from Hobbiton - Rank 4
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Hi all

I chose to use Teleporno, because of my dyslexia....the form of the word is easier for me.

Oh and it makes me smile.....every time.....because it' a bit like

Telephone and Televiosion and.........Telegraph.

Teleporno, doesn't seem that bothered about losing Galadriel.

I too belive that he went to Rivendell and stayed with the sons of Elrond.

As for realtion dydnamics...can a truley powerful woman respect a less powerful man as a partner.

Look and Margret and Dennis Thatcher.......not quite Galadriel....mind you...I think she fancied Reagan

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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Filli,
Go get 'em brother!  Nail those Republicans!
Go those sticks going...jab...jab...jab!!!
So what if Thatcher was one of England's greatest...

We love you man!!! Lay it on!!!
(smiles)
Bear


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Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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'... doesn't seem that bothered about losing Galadriel.'

Hmm, I think he does; though obviously just my opinion. He tells Aragorn: 'May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end.' And this is another reason why Celeborn 'the Teler of Aman' doesn't work for me. If Celeborn came from Aman like Galadriel, why wouldn't he return with her?

In any case I think Tolkien simply forgot what he had published concerning Galadriel and Celeborn.

 

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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Galin,
I think we forget that Galadriel was "in exile" and could only return to the West after "passing the test" when she refused the offered "One Ring."

"I pass the test," she said. "I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel." (The Lord of the Rings, Fellowship of the Ring, Book Two, Chapter VII - "The Mirror of Galadriel", pg. 366)
Celeborn loses Galadriel not from some arbitrary act but as an act of redemption and atonement for her part in the tragedy of the children of Feanor.
Your quote of Celeborn is one of bitterness but also a prophecy about Galadriel shared in their farewell to Aragorn.

"Then Aragorn took leave of Celeborn and Galadriel; and the Lady said to him: 'Elfstone, through darkness you have come to your hope, and have now all your desire.  Use well the days!'
But Celeborn said: 'Kinsman, farewell! May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end'." (The Lord of the Rings, Return of the King, Book Six, Chapter VI - "Many Partings", pg. 982)
Celeborn knows that Galadriel will be leaving him, but he also knows that this is a blessing for his Lady, and not one to be begrudged by him either.

Your point; "In any case I think Tolkien simply forgot what he had published concerning Galadriel and Celeborn." is one that I think those of us participating in forums like this need to keep foremost when speculating about his works.  Tolkien's works are ones that went through decades of revision and re-writing.  Names, races, events, languages, and characters were in flux for most of those decades.  And Tolkien was also active in his academic work.  The man had a multitude of literary ideas constantly flowing through his mind.  He was probably lucky if he remembered to put his pants on.
And, meaning no criticism, what we have in many of his works, are versions influenced by Christopher Tolkien, taken from scribblings in pencil from a notebook!!!

Once again I am impressed.
I love this Forum,
Bear



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Hobbit from Hobbiton - Rank 4
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Hi all

Love is a strong motivator in the works.

Aragorn and Arwen
Beren & Luthien

And so on...........those people in love , with love grew greater than themselves....through hardship and loss, to topple the gods themselves.

Celeborn is resigned to loss........quitter.

Galadriel is better off without him

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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Filli,
You are right my friend.
Love is what seems to make it happen.
Weren't we talking about romance a few weeks ago?

Hmmm...memory like peanut butter...I need a palm pilot.

Have a good day at the job!
Rock on...
Bear


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Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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Celeborn sails Oversea later, and joins Galadriel. He was (naturally) sad that they would be parted for some time, but yet he also loved the land of Middle-earth, his home over the long years, and could be happy enough for a time. Sam explains to his daughter:

'Before he went Mr. Frodo said that my time maybe would come. I can wait. I think maybe we haven't said farewell for good. But I can wait. I have learned that much from the Elves at any rate. They are not so troubled about time. And so I think Celeborn is still happy among his trees, in an Elvish way. His time hasn't come, and he isn't tired of his land yet. When he is tired he can go.'

JRRT, draft Epilogue to The Lord of the Rings (second version) Sauron Defeated

In Morgoth's Ring, Laws and Customs of the Eldar, it is said: 'Thus, although the wedded remain so for ever, they do not necessarily dwell or house together at all times; for without considering the chances and seperations of evil days, wife and husband, albeit united, remain persons individual having each gifts of mind and body that differ.'

I think Galadriel would have understood, arguably better than anyone, why Celeborn remained; and yet they both could look forward to a joyous day of reuniting again in the West.







-- Edited by Galin on Tuesday 11th of August 2009 01:23:37 PM

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Hobbit from Hobbiton - Rank 4
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Hi All

Galin thanks for that!

I suppose I'm comparing elves to men.....apples and pears.

Well how about during the intervening years, Feanor is released from the halls of Mandos.

Swoops Galadriel off her feet...being a bit of a bad boy and all.

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