what was before Illuvatar darkness? Nothingness, no existence? Or was eru always there, like god, never born?? Besides Aunindale, where does Eru make an appearence or is discussed???
__________________
Three Silmarils To Rule Them All, Three Silmarils To Find, them and in the darkness bind them
You won't get an answer to that question. The best way to look at is is simply to say Iluvatar is above such things. He is the baseline, there is no further back only forwards.
Actualy the Universe is called 'Ea' in Tolkien's myth. Existence only applies in Ea. Before the Universe there was Iluvatar and the Ainur who came from him. They dwelt in the Void (which is not the Universe, its simply void, nothingness). The Music of the Ainur and the Flame Imperishable were what created existance, Ea, the Universe.
__________________
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
They didn't leave. They have always been in the Blessed Realm, and I am surprised that you don't remember the swan ship that came to the Grey Heavens that picked up the Last Elves, plus Bilbo, Frodo and Gandalf. How do you think the ship got there? On its own? No, of course not! The Valar send it and guided it from afar. This was the last ship to leave from Mithlond, it took the last Elves, including the master of the Grey Havens back to Valinor.
-- Edited by ArwenLegolas at 23:22, 2008-11-16
__________________
Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow! Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!
EruIlluvatarEa, First off welcome to the forums!!! Ive been a member for a few months and if you love Tolkien may I say welcome home. There are so many wonderful and knowledgeable folks here that any question you ask will have people responding to you and going the extra mile to encourage and support you. You may make some good friends.
To your question; what was before Illuvatar darkness? Nothingness, no existence? Or was Eru always there, like god, never born?? Besides Ainulindale, where does Eru make an appearance or is discussed??? (Tolkien Forums > General Lore > Before Eru > EruIlluvatarEa > November 15th, 2008)
Curiosity about Eru Illuvatar has definitely been a topic present in the Forums. Look into a section titled The Unknown Powers , Analytical, and Beyond the Shores of Middle Earth forums and you will find plenty of speculation and erudite discourse about Eru and the Ainu / Valar. Look at threads like Tolkien Mythos, Eru/fate, and Melkor greater than Eru. While not specifically direct about Eru Illuvatar you can glean a lot from topics about The Music of the Ainur and Flame Imperishable and Valar - Gods or Angels.
But so not to lead you astray I want to share a quote from the forward of the Silmarillion. Christopher Tolkien is writing to tell us that the Silmarillion has been around in some form (though sometimes not called The Silmarillion) since 1917 and as such is a thread for Tolkiens other books, tales, and writings. And that we may not find definitive answers.... Indeed, although it was not then called The Silmarillion, it was already in being a half a century ago; and in battered notebooks extending back to 1917 can still be read the earliest versions, often hastily penciled, of the central stories of the mythology. But it was never published (though some indication of its content could be gleaned from The Lord of the Rings), and throughout my fathers long life he never abandoned it, nor ceased, even in his last years, to work on it. In all that time The Silmarillion, considered simply as a large narrative structure, under went relatively little radical change; it became long ago a fixed tradition, and background to later writings. But it was far indeed from being a fixed text, and did not remain unchanged even in certain fundamental ideas concerning the nature of the world it portrays; while the same legends came to be retold in longer and shorter forms, and in different styles. As the years passed the changes and variants, both in detail and in larger perspectives, became so complex, so pervasive, and so many-layered that a final and definitive version seemed unattainable. (The Silmarillion, Forward, pg. vii)
The concept of Eru, the Void, the Flame Imperishable, the Ainur, the Valar, and a zillion other pieces of Tolkiens work are scattered in the Books of Lost Tales, Unfinished Tales, his other books and letters, and the literary commentaries, ALL give us broader and sometimes different insights. And as Christopher Tolkien reminds us his father left us with a work in progressand boy is it fun!!! I have found the discussions by The Might and mouth of sauron about such topics to be particularly insightful.
So I say, Welcome and nice to meet you. Please take some time and follow the suggestions in Introduce yourself beginners and Introduce yourself fanatics forums and follow The Mights thread Getting to Know You in the Utterly Miscellaneous Forums. It helps you expand your profile and helps others getting to know you. You already have some of us eager to see what develops from Before Eru. Again welcome, Bear an Elf-Friend
__________________
Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit Called or uncalled, God is present
And many times a character evolved or devolved, depending on who is your favorite. Take Beren for instance. He is best known as a Human, a mortal, but Tolkien actually also had him as a Dwarf and an Elf, but totally changed his race to Human. SO like my friend Bear said, nothing is written in Stone when it comes to Tolkien.
__________________
Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow! Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!
There was nothing Eru, because Eru supposedly existed before time itself existed, making him thus timeless and making the term "before" lose any meaning it may have for us in a normal sense.
There was nothing before, because there was no before, just as there will be no after. Or so they faithful of M-e think.
What if Eru had had a creator of his own and decided on day to create the Ainur and then all other beings in the world and to tell the spirits a false truth about himself. But of course, that is just some random idea I just had and that cannot be proven right, or by that matter wrong either with any quote. :D
