The Valar I would say are Gods. They created all the things in the world and know most of what was, is, and is to be. Besides they are called 'Gods all over the History of Middle-earth books (no need to quote becuase there are so many).
I would say that the Maiar could be considered Angelic, the were messengers and helpers of the Valar.
Silmariilion Page 30 "Of the Maiar" "With the Valar came other 'spirits' (emphasis mine) whose being also began before the world, of the same order as the Valar but of lesser degree. These are the Maiar, the people of Valar, and their servants and helpers."
Which is what most religions agree on, that angelic or lesser gods, are usually messengers or helpers.
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Apart from HOME there is another quote clearly indicating the Valar as Gods:
"Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Oromë the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young."
They are god-like, but they too serve a greater power. So I'd say that all the Ainur are Eru's angels, and that the Maiar that chose to come to Arda and serve the Valar can be seen as a special sub-division, also being "angels" for the Valar.
The Valar cannot be Angels. Angels are solely messengers of higher powers. The Valar (and Maiar to a small degree) created the Wold with there Music and the Valar also created virtually all things in the world like the mountains and seas. This is no work of Angels. Iluvatar is the Allfather, the Creator, perhaps the supreme God. But the Valar are perhaps lesser Gods, deciples of The One. The Maiar, and in particular the Istari could be classed as Angels but they too do not utterly fit the description.
Here's just a few examples of JRRT explaining the Powers...
'God and the Valar (or powers: Englished as gods) are revealed. These latter are as we should say angelic powers, whose function is to excercise delegated authority in their spheres (of rule and government, not creation, making or re-making). (...) On the side of mere narrative device, this is, of course meant to provide beings of the same order and beauty, power, majesty as the 'gods' of higher mythology, which can yet be accepted -- well, shall we say baldly, by a mind that believes in the Blessed Trinity'. JRRT to Milton Waldman, probably late 1951
'The immediate 'authorities' are the Valar (the Powers or Authorities): the 'gods'. But they are only created spirits -- of high angelic order we should say, with their attendant lesser angels -- reverened therefore, but not wordshipful.' Draft to Peter Hastings 1954
*There is only one 'god': God Eru Iluvatar. There are the first creations, angelic beings, of which those most concerned in the Cosmogony reside (of love and choice) inside the World, as Valar or gods, or governors;...' footnote to a draft to Robert Murray, 1954
'... to the Valar or Rulers. These take the place of the 'gods', but are created spirits, or those of the primary creation who by their own will have entered into the world*
*They shared in its 'making' -- but only on the same terms as we 'make' a work of art or story. The realization of it, the gift to it of a created reality of the same grade as their own, was the act of the One God.' Draft to Michael Straight, probably 1956
'They were allowed to do so, and the great among them became the equivalent of the 'gods' of traditional mythologies; but a condition was that they would remain 'in it' until the Story was finished.' to Major Bowen 1957
'There are no 'Gods', properly so called, in the mythological background of my stories. Their place is taken by the persons referred to as the Valar (or Powers): angelic created beings appointed to the government of the world.' to A. E. Couchman, 1966
Well, personally it seems to be saying what I was thinking about. The only true god is Eru, and all others are creatures of angelic order, some higher and some lower. And even though they did help create the world and also ruled over it as gods, they still remained "angelic created beings".
Also, thanks a lot Galin for the great quotes you found.
Hmm, I doubt I'm answering Glorfindel's question, but as I worked on the following and it's all I have time for today...
'There are no 'Gods', properly so called, in the mythological background of my stories. Their place is taken by the persons referred to as the Valar (or Powers): angelic created beings appointed to the government of the world.' Tolkien to A. E. Couchman, 1966
I will be comparing Tolkien's own statements with those from 'The Doctrine of Angels' by G.T. Tabert, noting again that Tolkien here explains that the Valar are not properly called 'gods' but are 'angelic created beings' and etc. Tabert's quotes appear in bold.
Angels are creations in the one creation of which we are a part. Before the creator in his unique glory, they stand alongside of us.
As are the Valar, created beings.
Angels are not God and so are not allowed to accept worship, and they see themselves as our fellow servants (Rev 19.9-10).
Compare Tolkien's 'high angelic order we should say, with their attendant lesser angels -- reverend therefore, but not worshipful.'
The only reference we have to angels present at the founding of the earth is Job 38.7. Here they are presented as spectators who saw God begin the work of creating the world and they sang and shouted for joy.
Hmmm, the angels 'sing' as God created the world... not the same obviously, but more on creation below in any case.
Without gender and not a race Angels do not have gender and do not marry (Matt 22.30).
This is interesting, as in earlier conceptions Tolkien's Valar 'married' and had children. This was ultimately abandoned however.
Hammond and Scull write: 'In the first account of Creation in Tolkien's mythology (... circa 1919), Arda took shape during the making of the music, and the Valar did not have to labour to achieve the vision. Unlike the remote and noble Valar of The Silmarillion, those of The Music of the Ainur and The Coming of the Valar and the Building of Valinor (both published in The Book of Lost Tales, Part One) are much closer to the gods of Olympus or Asgard, with many faults and weaknesses. They have Children, and even include among their number Makar and Measse, a brother and sister whose main concern is strife and discord.' H&S Reader's Companion
On the early use of the word 'Gods' Christopher Tolkien notes, in the early 'The Music of the Ainur': 'The Valar are here referred to as 'Gods' (...) and this usage survived until far on in the development of the mythology.'
In The Annals of Aman (HME X) we can even see Tolkien later revising the word 'gods': 'The Word 'gods' was removed in AAm* (Annals of Aman*) at both occurrences' (CJRT). Tolkien also made a similar revision to another copy (he used 'the Deathless' on this version instead of 'the servants of Ilúvatar').
Of course the usage survived in later texts as well. That said, it may also be noted that Tolkien generally came to view his Mythology differently as time passed: 'It is now clear to me that in any case the Mythology must actually be a 'Mannish' affair (...) what we have in the Silmarillion etc. are traditions (especially personalized, and centered upon actors, such as Feanor) handed on by Men in Númenor and later in Middle-earth (Arnor and Gondor); but already far back -- from the first association of the Dúnedain and Elf-friends with the Eldar of Beleriand -- blended and confused with their own Mannish myths and cosmic ideas.' JRRT Text I Myths Transformed, Morgoth's Ring
Indeed as Númenor takes the place of Atlantis (or 'garbled' versions of a drowned land or city), the Valar take the place of the 'gods' of other mythologies. The Valar are not these gods obviously, but 'explain' them in general. And, since Tolkien is Christian and is later distancing his Valar from pagan mythologies (as compared to earlier versions anyway), he further notes that the Valar are not even properly called gods. Back to Angels...
Angels were regarded as extremely wise and knowledgeable (2 Sam 14.20). For all of their superiority in knowledge, angels are not omniscient. The Fathers own purposes for salvation are hidden from their own view, and God has not informed them of it.
As the Valar are wise and knowledgeable, and God has not informed the Valar about everything concerning his Children.
To angels God gave the capacity for power over the world to participate in executing the divine will in the government of the world (...)
Where angels have their role and come into full action is in Gods government of the world. This is signaled for us in Gen 3.24. After man sinned and was driven out of the Garden, the LORD stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life. As the story of salvation unfolds, we see angels in action. In this angels again stand side by side with man. Neither man nor angels had a role in the work of creation, but both have their roles in history. Angels exercise Gods power over the created world in the government of the world, and mankind is to enter Gods reign or kingdom and so share in Gods reign. Angels and mankind are in parallel.'
Compare Tolkien's: 'These latter are as we should say angelic powers, whose function is to exercise delegated authority in their spheres (of rule and government, not creation, making or re-making).' JRRT
Messengers: Our word angel comes from the Greek word angelos which means messenger. The Hebrew word for angel is malak and has the same meaning. These words are used in the Bible for human messengers as well as for angels. In the OT, the malak relayed messages (Num 20.14; 22.5; Judges 7.24; 1Sam 6.21; 1Kings 19.2) or carried out a commissioned task (Josh 6.25; 1Sam 19.11; 2Kings 6.32). Throughout the Bible, angels both relay messages to people from God and carry out tasks commissioned by God. They are known most for communicating messages, for it is in this capacity that they appear in Biblical stories. But, the number of times we read of them carrying messages is relatively few. By far their largest role is to carry out tasks for God as executive agents, when they are not seen or noticed.
Thus, despite the word itself, and the fact that Angels do relay messages, Angels are themselves not merely messengers.
Angels have observed the whole work of the creation of the world (Job 38.7) and of salvation history. They have played a role in this history, executing Gods word with power.
Comparable enough, again in general.
The hierarchy among angels places some angels over others.
Tolkien's 'But they are only created spirits -- of high angelic order we should say, with their attendant lesser angels'
When we see good angels exercise their might in the scriptures, they are working on physical reality, physical objects, forces or the body. They carry out judgments on people or they protect and deliver from physical dangers. Within this limited sphere of activity, they can wield Gods power over the world, but they can only do it by Gods word.
Again Angels do not simply relay messages but have power, noting the derivation and meaning of the word Valar 'Powers' (yes Gods have power too, but see my conclusion).
When discussing the angels power, we noticed that as spirit beings they share Gods nature and can wield his power over creation. The power over creation does not belong to the angels but to God, and when this power is exercised we are not to relate to the angels but to God.
This is a distinction with which I think JRRT would have no problem with. The Valar exercise 'delegated' authority.
Creation
In Genesis 1 no role is given to angels in the work of creating the world. This remains true throughout the rest of the Bible. Gods unique position is secured in the fact that he alone is the creator, and he did not give this glory to another (Ish 42.8; 48.11), not even to an angel.'
Tolkien: *They shared in its 'making' -- but only on the same terms as we 'make' a work of art or story. The realization of it, the gift to it of a created reality of the same grade as their own, was the act of the One God.'
Note this important distinction: Tolkien compares the demiurgic labors of the Valar to Men 'making' works of art or stories, and the created reality rests with God alone. Though the participation of the Valar differs from that of the role of Angels, nonetheless this participation (however great in degree) is yet equal to Men as sub-creators in their own right. Essentially here Tolkien even qualifies the great labour of the angelic beings as if they were 'merely' superior artists, created by God, also creating as Men or Elves or Dwarves do, but on a larger scale. Ultimately the emphasis is back on the one being Tolkien thinks properly should be called God.
Purpose
Of course there is more that could be said concerning Angels (even kinds of Angels, Cherubim, Seraphim for example), and some might claim I have chosen that which fits. To that I say yes, as my purpose here is not to 'argue' with Tolkien's choice of phrasing or terminology. As I said above, for example, Gods are 'powerful' too, and thus could fit with the word Valar as well, but the purpose here is rather to find a general fit with Tolkien's explanations.
Indeed I'll leave others to the task (if desired) of noting how Christian Angels don't fit. Here I have attempted to compare basic ideas of what angels are and do (written by someone far more learned about Angels than I am), with that of JRR Tolkien's own statements -- his qualifications and choice of terminology in the letters I raised -- noting 'angelic powers' 'angelic order' 'angelic beings' and 'angelic created beings' and etc.
This all said, I'm not sure we need to simply label the Valar 'gods' or 'angels'. But that said too, one can hardly go astray with Tolkien's own explanations.
That is the case for the Valar being called or referred to as 'gods' (besides which, quoting from HME 1 to HME XII will only leave a false impression of the number of these references. In later texts there are examples of Tolkien even revising some of these examples).
The Men of Middle-earth call the Numenoreans 'gods', Men often called the Valar gods, but that doesn't make them actual gods. Tolkien even does so as author, but further explains that they are not properly called gods but angelic sub-creators (the quote after this new passage).
'Strictly these spirits were called Ainur, the Valar, being only those from among them who entered the world after its making, and the name is properly applied only to those great among them, who take the imaginative but not the theological place of 'gods'. The Ainur took part in the making of the world as 'sub-creators': in various degrees, after this fashion.'JRRT 1958, draft letter 212
The Valar do not take the theological place of 'gods'. And as mentioned...
'There are no 'Gods', properly so called, in the mythological background of my stories. Their place is taken by the persons referred to as the Valar (or Powers): angelic created beings appointed to the government of the world.' to A. E. Couchman, 1966
I think Tolkien intentionally made his creation myth unable to be directly paralleled with Christianity. Therefore trying to call them 'gods' or 'angels' in that sense of the word may be difficult. He was a devout Christian and it no doubt affected him, but his system of Gods and how Arda was created draws parallels to many cultures besides his own. He was heavily influenced by Norse and Celtic mythology, for one thing. The more I learn about Norse mythology (that's another area of interest for me), the more I notice the many parallels.
Slightly off topic, but here's just one example of Norse mythology being worked in by Tolkien that I found just today! Everybody knows about Earendil, right? Ever wonder what inspired him? The Norse god Earendel (also known as Aurvendil) was the inspiration for him. I like Tolkien's myth better, but here's their story:
Earendel was journeying across the icy wastes with Thor. The ground was so cold that his toes froze solid, and Thor had to amputate them and carry Earendel around in a basket with him. The frozen toes were flung into the sky where they became the stars Alcor (The Plough/Big Dipper) and Rigel (Orion).
Yeah, I have no explanation for that....Norse myths are on the whole pretty strange but I really like them. Perhaps sometime I'll start a thread about it.
For clarity I am not proposing Tolkien simply took Christian angels and called them the Valar. The original question asks whether they were gods (actual gods) or more like angels. The Valar are 'like' gods too but if in the end they are not theologically 'gods' but angelic beings rather... well so went the thrust of my posts. Tolkien was a Christian and would very arguably be aware of the ideas expressed in the paper I used for comparison, but that was for a basic comparison, as I say.
I'm not posting, for example, that Melkor is Lucifer but rather that Melkor is an angelic being in Tolkien's tales, not a god. If that makes him more like Lucifer in some way (more than some evil 'god' in some pantheon) then so be it, but I am not on the side of oversimplification in matters of inspiration, in any case.
The Valar are the result of various influences, part of Tolkien's particular soup, but they do not assume the theological role of 'gods' in his tale, when one wishes to 'define' them more properly that is.
Tolkien was greatly influenced by pagan mythologies and legends in general. And indeed he knew about the Norse tales of Aurvandill, or Orentil (Old High German) but in any discussion of Earendil we should add Cynewulf's Anglo-Saxon Crist...
'The name is in fact (as is obvious) derived from Anglo-Saxon éarendel (...) I was struck by the great beauty of this word (or name) (...) Also its form strongly suggests that it is in origin a proper name and not a common noun. This is borne out by the obviously related forms in other Germanic languages; from which amid the confusions and debasements of late traditions it at least seems certain that it belonged to astronomical-myth, and was the name of a star or star-group. To my mind the Anglo-Saxon uses seem to indicate that it was a star presaging the dawn [Venus] (...) Before 1914 I wrote a "poem" on Eärendel who launched his ship like a bright spark from the havens of the Sun. I adopted him into my mythology - in which he became a prime figure as a mariner, and eventually as a herald star, and a sign of hope to men.' JRRT, 1967 Letters
The Old English poem Crist by Cynewulf contains the lines...
All of the quotes are very good, but I think the answer to the initial question is best answered by the Children of Iluvatar.
Elves, at least the Calaquendi, are definitely monotheistic, as were the Men of Numenor. So I guess the answer is completely dependant upon race and perception. To the lesser men of Middle-Earth, the Valar were gods. There doesnt seem to be much evidence to dispute that. See quotes above.
From the Elvish standpoint, I dont believe that they saw the Valar as angels, per se. They would have seen them as the servants of Eru, though I dont know that that would make them angels in the human concept since as was mentioned above, they had a hand in the creation of the world and its governing and were not merely messengers.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Well angels were not merely messengers it seems. But a comparison to the concept of angels as Tolkien knew them (Christian) does not mean the Valar are Christian angels... just 'like' angels rather, in ways, as they are like gods as well.
'And they revered the memory of the tall Sea-kings, and when they had departed they called them gods, hoping for their return; for at that time the Númenóreans dwelt never long in Middle-earth,...'Akallabêth
Some Men thought other Men gods too, but that doesn't make them actual gods of course, from a theological standpoint. In my opinion the answer here not only includes perceptions or explanations of the internal characters, but goes beyond even that, hence the commentary from a source where Tolkien is arguably freer to explain his creation.
There is an account of the Halifirien ('Holy Mountain'), marked for deletion but published in Vinyar Tengwar 42, part of which explains (edited a bit by me for brevity)...
'Since in oaths of the greatest solemnity the names of the Valar were invoked (...) this might be sufficient to hallow the spot.'
'But the account in annals contains two remarkable details: that there was at the place where Cirion and Eorl stood what appeared to be an ancient monument of rough stones nearly man-high with a flat top; and that on this occasion Cirion to the wonder of many invoked the One (that is God). (...)'
'This would in efect hallow the spot for as long as the Númenórean realms endured, and was no doubt intended to do so, being not in any way an attempt to restore the worship of the One on the Meneltarma ('pillar of heaven'), the central mountain of Númenor (note 2: 'That would have been regarded as sacrilegious'), but a reminder of it, and of the claim made by 'the heirs of Elendil' that since they had never wavered in their allegince they were still permitted to address the One in thought and prayer direct.'
Christopher Tolkien noted that the words 'It may however have been a tomb' may well signify the precise moment at which the tomb of Elendil on Halifirien entered the History. In any case, indeed in the account ultimately published in Unfinished Tales (Cirion And Eorl), Cirion's answer to Eorl contains mention of those who sit upon the thrones of the West and the One. And...
'Such an oath had not been heard in Middle-earth since Elendil himself had sworn alliance with Gil-galad of the Eldar*'. The author's note then explains that it had been lawful only for the king of Númenor to call Eru to witness, and then only on the most grave and solemn occasions, and...
'Nonetheless his oath astounded those who heard it, and filled them with awe, and was alone (over an above the venerable tomb) sufficient to hallow the place where it was spoken.'
JRRT, author's note (note 44) to Cirion And Eorl, Unfinished Tales
That's pretty interesting Galin....I only read the author's notes in a few sections that particularly interested me. As to your post before that, I'd seen the reference to Crist before, but didn't know of a connection to Norse myth as well. It's clear that Earendil was drawn from that poem, but I thought it was neat to find out another source for that name.
You've posted some great references in regards to the Angels/Gods debate, but as Celethil said, I think they reflect the same viewpoint that the basics covered in Ainulindale do - that Iluvatar is the one true God and the Ainur are not gods OR angels, but merely participants in its creation and agents in the fulfillment of his plan. I think it's probably best to discard the notion of labeling them as anything other than what they were described...one of the things I like best about Middle-Earth is its difference and remoteness from our own.
I agree Secret Fire; indeed as I posted earlier...
This all said, I'm not sure we need to simply label the Valar 'gods' or 'angels'. But that said too, one can hardly go astray with Tolkien's own explanations.
Tolkien answered that question. He explains they are not gods from a theological standpoint and that they are not properly called gods due to his distinctions, but angelic powerful subcreators rather.
B) Valar: more like gods or more like angels?
That's a different question, and the answer might depend upon the emphasis each person might bring.
The point I'm trying to make in any case (and probably why I've been so vocal in this thread) is that no matter how much one might emphasize how the Valar are like gods of pagan mythologies (question B) the theological distinction (question A) still remains -- that is, they do not become 'gods' from a theological standpoint no matter how 'like' gods they are -- or, if one tries to argue so, I say he or she must at least then deal with the distinctions Tolkien himself makes in external sources.
In my opinion this was an important distinction to the Christian Tolkien, no matter that he was indeed influenced by 'pagan' legends as well. One can pray to the Virgin Mary for example, call on her for help, dedicate a chapel to her... but she is not an actual 'goddess' according to the faith that Tolkien knew and practised.
And despite the amazing power and authority of the Valar, there is a theological line that they do not cross: the One is unique, not a great God among lesser gods. That is why Tolkien, knowing how 'godlike' the Valar might seem to Men internal to his tale, yet chooses to explain even in a letter to someone who is not 'internal' to his tale (but still might confuse this matter)...
'... and the name is properly applied only to those great among them, who take the imaginative but not the theological place of 'gods'. The Ainur took part in the making of the world as 'sub-creators': in various degrees, after this fashion.''
'There are no 'Gods', properly so called, in the mythological background of my stories. Their place is taken by the persons referred to as the Valar (or Powers): angelic created beings appointed to the government of the world.'
I think it boils down to the fact that there were no Gods or Angels in Ea, there were Valar and Maiar. The Valar may seem like Gods of Greek or Pagan mytholigies and the Maiar may seem to be there messengers (Angels) but I think that is as far as one can take it.
