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Topic: Dorwinion

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Glorfindel
Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Dorwinion
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Reading the Hobbit I found that the Elves of Thranduil got there wines from Dorwinion.

"It must be potent wine to make a wood-elf drowsy; but this wine, it would seem, was the heady vintage of the great gardens of Dorwinion, not meant for his soldiers or his servants, but for the king's feasts only, and for smaller bowls, not for the butler's great flagons." The Hobbit

Now Dorwinion lies just on the Northwestern side of the Sea of Rhun. How would the Elves get Wines from there when the Easterlings are around that area? Surely the Elves would not do deals with the ene,mies of the Free Peoples?

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The Might
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I doubt that that region was inhabited by Easterlings at the time, since they made trade...I am not sure if Tolkien ever explains or hints where these people descend from, but it could be they are also related to the Eotheod, Beornings and the Woodmen of Mirkwood, as descendants of the Edain from the First Age.

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Glorfindel
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Hmmm but it would seem a bit strange that the Easterlings would allow a remnant of the Men of Rhovanion still to dwell so near there land. Surely they would have drove them away at the least, or more likely have killed them? They were having wars against Gondor for many centuries during the Third Age I just cannot see how a group of men could have sustained themselves so close to Rhun.

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The Might
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Why?
It is nowhere stated they fought on either side.
For all we know they might have neutral in this whole conflict, and might have traded with everyone. And anyway, the fact that it is only mentioned once in all the works, doesn't mean Tolkien tried to make up a good complex story behind Dorwinion. Seems to be just a good place to buy wine.

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Lord Tulkas
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This is again one annoying thing in Tolkien's work. (with annoying i mean in good way). He does mention something but doesn't give full explanation about it afterwards. All we can do now is to assume if different theories are true or not.

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mouth of sauron
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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There is also a Dorwinion in Tol Eressea. Just thought that was some interesting information..

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The Might
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Interesting...where did you find that information, mos, it really interests me.
Anyway, I found out more. In unpublished works, Dorwinion wine is already present in the First Age (imagine...people making wine for 5000 years or so)

Beleg, in the book Lays of Beleriand was carrying wine " and he drew from his belt a flask of leather full filled with wine that bruised from the berries of the burning South ..... but their heads were mazed by the wine of Dorwinion " Also in the Thousend Caves of Thingol and Melian in Doriath is the wine mentioned "On a time was Turin, at the table of Thingol where was laughter long and the loud clamour of a countless conpany that quaffed the mead amid the wine of Dorwinion.."

It was the Dwarves of Nogrod who imported the wine across Ered Luin and Hithaeglir into Beleriand, they were the true merchants of Arda, never neglecting any chance for a good trade or deal.

Clearly the area around the Sea of Rhun had always been good for wine, since it was already used in the First Age.

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ArwenLegolas
Tom Bombadil
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It strikes me as odd, that Dorthonion means Land of Pines in Sindarin. If it is a wine growing region why didn't they call it land of grapes? It was created as far as I know during the upheavals of the Battle of the Powers. And part of it was fell down the precipices of Ered Gorgoroth. But the land was not fruitful. The northern slopes were ruined in the Dagor Bragolach, and the Orcs overrun it soon after that battle. Dorthonion was deserted by Elves and Men, save for the outlaw band of Barahir. and the land was renamed Taur-nu Fuin, because of the horrors of Morgoth that corrupted the Forests. Dorthonion was was freed only for a short time by the Union of Maedhros, but it was lost again after the Nirneath Arnoediad. So tell me, where did they grow the Grape vines to grow the grapes and makae the wine?

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Galin
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The Might wrote: Interesting...where did you find that information, mos, it really interests me.

This mention of Dorwinion appears in the conclusion to Quenta Silmarillion, the version written before The Lord of the Rings.



-- Edited by Galin on Thursday 26th of March 2009 03:27:32 PM

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mouth of sauron
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Here are a few quotes:

Here endeth The Silmarillion: which is drawn out in brief from those songs and histories which are yet sung and told by the fading Elves, and (more clearly and fully) by the vanished Elves that dwell now upon the Lonely Isle, Tol Eressea, whither few mariners of Men have ever come, save once or twice in a long age when some man of Earendel's race hath passed beyond the lands of mortal sight and seen the glimmer of the lamps upon the quays of Avallon, and smelt afar the undying flowers in the meads of Dorwinion. Of whom was Eriol one, that men named AElfwine, and he alone returned and brought tidings of Cortirion to the Hither Lands.

The quays of Avallon. At this time Avallon was a name of Tol Eressea: 'the Lonely Island, which was renamed Avallon', FN II $1. The meads of Dorwinion must be in Tol Eressea. The name has previously occurred as a land of vines in 'the burning South' in the Lay of the Children of Hurin, in the wine of Dorwinion in The Hobbit, and as marked on the map made by Pauline Baynes; see III. 26, which needs to be corrected by addition of a reference to this passage.
Both from 'the Lost Road'

Although these are in HOME I have no reason to doubt that there was another Dorwinion in Tol Eressea, aside from the one near Rhun.

Perhaps the quotes you have given refer to the 'Tol Eressea' Dorwinion. Perhaps the Noldor brought some to Middle-earth and traded it? Remember that Rhun wasn't about in the First Age. It was called Helcar, a much larger sea which shrank to Nurnen and Rhun after the War of Wrath.

But after looking at some maps I see that the place where Dorwinion is in Middle-earth is still above water during the First Age. Its just a very long way from there to Beleriand.... roughly 2000 miles from Menegroth to Dorwinion (about twice distance from Hobbiton to the Iron hills East of Erebor). Or roughly the distance between Tol Eressea and the nearest coasts of Middle-earth (a long way to go for wine).

By the way - nice to see you still here Galin.smile

-- Edited by mouth of sauron at 09:52, 2007-06-01

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The Might
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Hmmm...you must remember the Dwarves. We know some Houses had settled in the East, and considering how much they traded it wouldn't be senseless to think that they had imported the wine from the east and sold it to Elves.
There is one thing speaking against your theory. As you can see the wine of Dorwinion had a taste of berries from the burning South. In this case it seems quite unlikely that the region spoken about is situated near Aman.

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Galin
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The Hobbit Dorwinion and the Eressean Dorwinion were both written by Tolkien of course, but I wonder if the latter had survived according to JRRT's later ideas.


-- Edited by Galin on Thursday 26th of March 2009 03:53:05 PM

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mouth of sauron
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Firstly - remember that Tol Eressea is situated right on the line of the Girdle of Arda which lies further south than Far Harad in Middle-earth. 'Berries from the south' could mean Tol Eressea as it was very far south though not on the same continent. I admit its far-fetched but possible.

Perhaps there was a third Doiiwnion far in the south of Middle-earth? Or perhaps that in the HOME series the Middle-earth Dorwinion was placed further south and later moved to the East? There are a variety of possiblities.

Galin - I do not think Tolkien had any reason to mention Dorwinion in Tol-eressea. For what need was there of mentioning it? I think it does exist but becuase all we know of the Blessed realm is contained in about 4 chapters of The Silmarillion I don't think there was need to bring Dorwinion into the publsihed Silmarillion. The same can be said for Himling. Although I must admit that I have seen it on every map I have encountered.

To conclude what I think - There is a Dorwinion on Tol Eressea which is only mentioned in HOME becuase there was room to. It never got published in the Silmarillion becuase of irrelevance and lack of space.
There is a Dorwinion in the East of Middle-earth (the same one as The Hobbit) and the wines were transfered by Dwarves of the east to there kinsfolk in Khazad-dum and the Halls of Durin then to the Dwarves of the Blue mountains and then down into Beleriand.
The Dorwinion of the South is the same one as in the East but later Tolkien decided to move it northeastwards near Rhun.

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Galin
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Just to clarifyng the textual situation behind the ideas: the Tol Eressean Dorwinion was, in any case, not published (at least) by JRRT himself, while the Hobbit Dorwinion was.

Not every map shows the Island of Himling, as this was not published (for whatever reason) in first editions, nor does it appear on the Pauline Baynes map (there are some added details on this map as a result of Tolkien giving some information to the artist).



-- Edited by Galin on Thursday 26th of March 2009 03:57:45 PM

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mouth of sauron
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It is clear a Dorwinion exists by Rhun. That much cannot be disputed. It is also probable that one exists in Tol Eressea, however there was no need to mention it in the Sil. Please do not over-complicate things with publishing dates etc. Its perfectly simple.

Why bother owning the HOME seires if you discard everything which isn't in The Silmarillion, LOTR or The Hobbit?

The HOME series contain some of Tolkien's earliest idears and some extra details which cannot be found in the published books. Just becuase some many idears are not published in Sil, lotr and The Hobbit it doesn't mean they were discarded. There is simply too much information in HOME to fit in those books and for the most part alot was not needed to be included.

Please show me the maps you are talking about which do not include the isle of Himling. Either link to them or show them in the actual post.

-- Edited by mouth of sauron at 17:37, 2007-06-01

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Galin
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mos: (...) Please do not over-complicate things with publishing dates etc. Its perfectly simple.

Dating removed (above): but generally dating can sometimes can throw new light on a given detail.

mos: Why bother owning the HOME seires if you discard everything which isn't in The Silmarillion, LOTR or The Hobbit?

Well I don't believe I said anything like this statement of yours.  If something's complicated I can't help it. Tolkien liked to niggle smile

mos: The HOME series contain some of Tolkien's earliest idears and some extra details which cannot be found in the published books. Just becuase some many idears are not published in Sil, lotr and The Hobbit it doesn't mean they were discarded. There is simply too much information in HOME to fit in those books and for the most part alot was not needed to be included.

Obviously I'm not discarding HME (or UT). In any event Christopher Tolkien has gone to great pains to try to date and characterize texts and notes to help colour the picture.

MOS: Please show me the maps you are talking about which do not include the isle of Himling. Either link to them or show them in the actual post.

Maps? plural? I can link to the Pauline Baynes map.


http://www.abo.fi/~jumppa/Pauline_Baynes_map_of_Middle-earth.jpg



Galin




-- Edited by Galin on Thursday 26th of March 2009 04:02:34 PM

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mouth of sauron
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I think I may have a reason for the map you provided at least. If you look at alot of the maps that are 'full size' which show all of northwestern Middle-earth they often do not show any of the isle's. Even Tolfalas. My edition of Lord of the Rings has a few maps in the back and none of the isle's are shown on the full size one. However on the smaller maps which are close-ups of the different regions the isle's are listed on the map of what was Arnor and Lindon.

This is why I believe Himling is an Isle:

Its in the back of my edition of LOTR.
Its in every other map I have seen of north western middle-earth.
As you mentioned Christopher Tolkien (writing heir of Tolkien and second in line with the creation of JRR's myth) states that Himling 'should' have been included but wasn't either by mistake or something else. He therefore added it himself.
Its in Karen wynn Fonstadd's 'The Atlas of Tolkien Middle-earth' - a well reaspected atlas with few flaws.

All these tarry up with the statement 'It wasn't listed on a Tolkien Published map'. I tyhink Christopher Tolkien's word alone on the subject rebuts this without any other evidence coming into play.

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Galin
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mos: As you mentioned Christopher Tolkien (writing heir of Tolkien and second in line with the creation of JRR's myth) states that Himling 'should' have been included but wasn't either by mistake or something else.

I never mentioned that Christopher Tolkien states: 'Himling 'should' have been included but wasn't either by mistake or something else.' 

What he says appears in UT.



-- Edited by Galin on Thursday 26th of March 2009 03:44:28 PM

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Bilbo Baggins
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Just to add a few things...Its listed as an Isle on Wikipedia, Tolkien Gateway and the Encyclopedia of Arda, as it Tol Fuin. Admitedly these are not Tolkien's approved things but they all add up.

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Galin
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Very generally speaking I am a bit wary of sources on the net, though some are probably well enough based on the texts.

With respect to Tol Fuin, according to Treebeard's chant at least, Dorthonion appears to be included in the lands under the wave. 

However this detail also appears on Tolkien's map now published in The History of Middle-Earth series.




-- Edited by Galin on Thursday 26th of March 2009 03:50:04 PM

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The Might
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Now I appreciate the nice discussion folks, but it appears that we have gone a bit too off topic. The original topic was a question about the way the Elves received the wine from Dorwinion, and in the meantime we're talking about the accuracy of information on islands that were created after the destruction of Beleriand.

I believe that Galin has provided very good quotes and clearly proved his point in this matter, there are as he said many flaws on the net because of the existence of many texts written by Tolkien in an earlier creation stage, and that often don't fit in with later things he wrote.

So I would like to kindly ask you to return to the initial topic, and if needed start a new thread for this new debate.

Actually, if you take a look at the map Galin provided, it's easy to notice that it would be easy to transport goods up the River Running, and since this was done further north it makes sense to speculate that this is how the wine ended up in Esgaroth.

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The Might
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I believe you do not really take me seriously...
All posts that continue with a discussion other then the topic shall be deleted.
Please start a new thread if you consider it necessary.

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