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Topic: Tulkas vs Melkor

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Elf of Beleriand - Rank 2
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Posts: 42
Date: Jan 8, 2007
Tulkas vs Melkor

I just got done reading the first book of lost tales, and reading the chaining of Melkor, i got the impression that even before this, melkor was scared of tulkas, and well of manwe too.  But he really hated Tulkas and i wanted to see if anyone could shed some more light on the subject.  Was there some writings of an earlier quarrel before ea was created between tulkas and Melkor?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Jan 8, 2007
No, I personally can't remember Tulkas being mentioned earlier even in older tales

I think even in earlier versions he entered Arda after its creation at the summons of Manwe who asked for help to defeat Melkor. There are however other reasons that would explain this hatred. Tulkas is described as delighting in wrestling and contests of strength. He wields no weapon, and rides no steed. As he cares little about either past or future, he is not a good councillor, but nonetheless a very hardy friend. He is described as being slow to wrath, but also slow to forgive—for that reason, he was one of the Valar that opposed the release of Melkor together with Aule and Orome.

And we are also told that they wrestled in the war of the Valar against Melkor and defeated Melkor before he was chained with Angainor.

Now, as far as fearing the Valar is concerned, I guess it is true. But as far as hating them is concerned, I believe you are wrong. Melkor didn't hate Tulkas or Manwe more, he hated everything in Arda, and there is a quote

"Hence his endeavour always to break wills and subordinate them to or absorb them into his own will and being, before destroying their bodies. This was sheer negation and its one ultimate object: Morogth would no doubt, if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own 'creatures', such as the orcs, when they had served his sole purpose in using them, the destruction of Elves and Men...Melkor could do nothing with arda, which was not from his own mind and was interwoven with the works and thoughts of others: even left alone he could only have gone raging on till all was levelled again into a formless chaos". ~ Morgoths Ring

We see Melkor hated all the things created by Eru, and this included Tulkas as well.

-- Edited by The Might at 18:14, 2007-01-08

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: Jan 10, 2007

I am a little unsure what the question/s is here. So to answer the question you seem to pose innthe title of this thread Tulkas vs Melkor then it depends.


In wrestling combat Tulkas would beat Melkor. In armed combat I would say Melkor would win purley becuase it is unlikley Tulkas knows how to weild a weapon, never having needed to.


As for which would win in terms of general Power, Might and wisdom, Melkor also wins there, ebing the mightiest dweller in Ea.



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My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....
Elf of Beleriand - Rank 2
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Date: Jan 10, 2007

I just re read my post and it was a little unclear, i will try and put it differently.  I the first book of lost tales, to me it seemed that above all of the other valar, melkor hated tulkas the most.  It seems he hated him even before the chaining.  And i was wondering if in some other book it is stated why this might be.  I think its obvios why he hates tulkas the most after the chaining, but i am pretty sure there was a line or two about it.  Not sure if that is any clearer or not.


 


And I agree in hand to hand, Tulkas would win and all other forms Melkor wins



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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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"It is told among the wise that the First War began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was any thing that grew or walked upon earth; and for long Melkor had the upper hand. But in the midst of the war a spirit of great strength and hardihood came to the aid of the Valar, hearing in the far heaven that there was battle in the Little Kingdom; and Arda was filled with the sound of his laughter. So came Tulkas the Strong, whose anger passes like a mighty wind, scattering cloud and darkness before it; and Melkor fled before his wrath and his laughter, and forsook Arda, and there was peace for a long age. And Tulkas remained and became one of the Valar of the Kingdom of Arda; but Melkor brooded in the outer darkness, and his hate was given to Tulkas for ever after." - The Beginning of Days, The Silmarillion


It is apparent above that Melkor hated Tulkas from the time he descended and managed to make him flee onwards. And Melkor only fled from Tulkas becuase it was the 'straw that broke the camels back', another Valar which then Melkor could not deal with. Not becuase Tulkas was so mighty he could deal with Melkor by himself.


Not many people realise that there were actually THREE wars between Melkor and the Valar, People only think there is 2 - the War of Powers, and the War of Wrath (first Time Melkor was chained, second cast into the Void).
Melkor ended and won the first War with the destruction of the Two great Pillars of Light. Then the Valar finally win (it took them a long time) the War of Powers, but Melkor gains his vengeance for this with the downfall of the Two Trees and the sundering of the Elves in Valinor. Then finally the Valar win the War of Wrath, and that was not so easily done.


Too many think that whenever the Valar attack Melkor it is an immediate and quick defeat for him. The score is 1/1. Melkor wins the First war, the Valar win the second, but Melkor gains his vengeance big time, so that is void, and the Valar finally end it with there first complete win, which so happens to end Melkor.



-- Edited by Glorfindel1235 at 13:04, 2007-01-11

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Elf of Beleriand - Rank 2
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Date: Jan 11, 2007
Although not the quote i was looking for, that one does help some. Thanks Glorfindel

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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It does indeed help Glorfindel.


Originally in the Void Melkor thought and believed that he wanted to have the world so that he himself could make the world a fair place for the Children of Iluvatar.


"And he feigned, even to himself at first, that he desired to go thither and order all things for the good of the Children of Ilúvatar, controlling the turmoils of the heat and the cold that had come to pass through him."


Later it appears that Melkor desires dominion over the world, as does Sauron at the height of his reign.


"'What wouldst thou have more?' said Morgoth. 'Dost thou desire all the world for thy belly? I did not vow to give thee that. I am its Lord.'"


However nearing the height of Melkor's power it appears that he simply wished for the complete destruction of Eru's creation and even the creatures that were under his control:


"Hence his endeavour always to break wills and subordinate them to or absorb them into his own will and being, before destroying their bodies. This was sheer negation and its one ultimate object: Morogth would no doubt, if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own 'creatures', such as the orcs, when they had served his sole purpose in using them, the destruction of Elves and Men...Melkor could do nothing with arda, which was not from his own mind and was interwoven with the works and thoughts of others: even left alone he could only have gone raging on till all was levelled again into a formless chaos". ~ Morgoths Ring



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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Good quotes there Mos. They do sem to show three different changes in Morgoth's attitude and state of mind.

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Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!

Peoples of Beleriand - Rank 1
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Date: Jun 3, 2007
Im sorry but i hafto diagree with the mouth of Sauron. Even though Melkor was in the 'beggining' the mightiest dweler in Ea it is said that after turning to evil he lost his might and lost a lot of the powers that his brethren possessed. He also knew fear. So Tulkas would beat him. But the only one that Melkor only truly feared and hated was Varda. Because it says in 'The Silmarillion' that Varda knew Melkor from before the making of the music and she rejected him. So Melkor does not bare any special hate toward Tulkas.

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