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Topic: War against the Elves

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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Date: Oct 20, 2006
War against the Elves

I believe I have read somewhere about the Dwarves engaging in wars against the Elves. I have never seen the text that details this.

If it did happen then when and where? Sorry if this sounds stupid, but I really can't remember.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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There may well be other but the main ones I know of are in the Silmarillion. Just before when Morgoth dominates Beleriand the Elves of Doriath start picking a fight with the Dwarves of The Blue mountains. This is becuase Thingol would not yeild the Simaril to the Dwarves when he was in there domain asking them to put it into the Dwarven necklace and so he was slain and this triggered the wars. Though there might have been previous wars between them. Its all in the later chapters of the Silmarillion.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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let me see...I dunno of any quotes, but then again there is a lot in the sil I forgot
quotes would be very interesting

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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It happens over a few chapters and is very scattered. Its hard to get quotes on this subject.

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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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I am still searching, but I seem to find more references to the Dwarves being fast friends with the Elves, especially the Noldor, rather than enemies that went to war. I still think there is some substance to this, I just cannot seem to find it.

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Valar
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Celethil, for the most part Dwarves and Elves got along ok.  You mention the Noldor, and yes the Dwarves and the Noldor had a good trading relationship.  They shared a common interest, and that was Aule/crafting, both were extremely skilled craftspeople and they got along quite well.


We also see the Elrond and the Elves of Rivendell act kindly towards the dwarves.  As Elrond gives the dwarves in The Hobbit rest as well as in LOTR specially inviting Gimli and Gloin to come dine with him.  I mean Rivendell was called 'the last homely house west of the Misty Mountains' for a reason.


The main strife between Elves and Dwarves come with the Silvan and Sindarin Elves...which as MoS points out probably goes back to the Dwarves slaying Thingol.  There wasn't much love between these two, and this is reinforced in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.  Thranduil shows a hatred towards the Dwarves in Bilbo's company...also Legolas and Celeborn display contempt/distrust towards Gimli in LOTR.


In The Silmarillion Thingol knew that the dwarves of Ered Lindon were great craftsmen and asked them to remake the Nauglamir and set in it a Silmaril.  The dwarves agreed, but then when both sides lay a claim to the Nauglamir, that's when trouble arises:


'By what right does the Elvenking lay claim to the Nauglamir, that was made by our fathers for Finrod Felagund who is dead?  It has come to him but by the hand of Hurin the Man of Dor-lomin, who took it as a thief out of the darkness of Nargothrond.'  But Thingol perceived their hearts, and saw well that desiring the Silmaril they sought by a pretext and fair cloak for their true intent; and in his wrath and pride he gave heed to his peril, but spoke to them in scorn, saying: 'How do ye of uncouth race dare to demand aught of me, Elu Thingol, Lord of Beleriand, whose life began by the waters of Cuivienen years uncounted ere the fathers of the stunted people awoke?'  And standing tall and proud among them he bade them with shameful words be  gone unrequited out of Doriath.


Then the lust of the Dwarves wase kindled to rage by the words of the King; and they rose up about him, and laid hands on him, and slew him as he stood.~The Ruin of Doriath


That quote is already long and extensive, that seems to be what starts the strife.  As of course Thingol's Elves are enraged and pursue the Dwarves, kill them, and takes the Nauglamir.  Which causes the Dwarves of Ered Lindon to be filled with rage and the ensuing fight occurs.  You can read fully about it in The Silmarillion: The Ruin of Doriath.


I don't think this is the only time the Dwarves and the Silvan/Sindarin elves were pitted against eachother either.  We almost see them go at it again in The Hobbit until the Goblins come it forces everyone to join and fight them.  Also during the Battle of the Last Alliance we are told:


Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron.~Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age


This doesn't talk about what Dwarves fought with Sauron, but does point out the Dwarves fought both for and against Sauron. 


The Dwarves were an interesting race (at least to me), from the quote above we see that indeed not many dwarves liked to get involved in Wars.  I think they were more of just that type to want to do their own thing and keep to themselves.  But with dwarves, one things for sure is you don't want to tick them off, because they won't forget it:


A warlike race of old were all the Naugrim, and they would fight fiercely against whomsoever aggrieved them: servants of Melkor, or Eldar, or Avari, or wild beasts, or not seldom their own kin, Dwarves of other mansions and lordships.”~Of the Sindar


It didn't matter who you were, if you made them mad they would come at you.  And we can see here that Dwarves would even fight against eachother...and Melkor and Sauron had some success (though probably not to the extent they wanted) in suading the Dwarves to their side...especially the Eastern Houses:


For they had met some far to the East who were of evil mind. [This was a later penciled note. On the previous page of the typescript my father wrote at the same time, without indication of its reference to the text but perhaps arising from the mention (p. 301) of the awakening of the eastern kindreds of the Dwarves: “Alas, it seems probable that (as Men did later) the Dwarves of the far eastern mansions (and some of the nearer ones?) came under the Shadow of Morgoth and turned to evil.”~Of Dwarves and Men


Some of the Dwarves in the Eastern houses fell under Morgoth's power, but the unique thing about Dwarves, which seperates them from the other races is:


'The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows.'~Of the Rings of Power


I don't think Sauron or Morgoth ever got the amount of control over the Dwarves that they hoped for.  Because, the Dwarves were 'tough to tame,' they liked to do their own thing, and that was to keep to themselves.  So, they did have some success in suading dwarves to their size, but not all that much success.  But that means we do have 'evil dwarves' and if you ticked them off they wouldn't forget it...creating the possibilities of Dwarves against Goblins, Dwarves against Elves, Dwarves against Men, and even Dwarves against Dwarves.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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again, another great post Lord Lorien
thank you firstly for the many quotes that shed more light as far as this topic is concerned

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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Lord Lorien - Your post shed a bit more light on the topic. Perhaps any other major conflict occurred between the Silvan Elves and the Dwarves.

The strife between the Dwarves and Sindar in the Silmarillion was inflamed by lust for a Silmaril, not by any racial motive. After the death of Thingol, the Dwarves that survived the retaliation go back and tell the Lord of Nogrod that Thingol tried to steal the Nauglamir and order them killed.

The Dwarves of Belegost actually try to prevent their brothers from going to war against the Elves. They fail and the Dwarves of Nogrod march on Doriath and win, but they are killed while dragging their spoils back home.

-- Edited by Celethil at 02:34, 2006-10-25

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Black Numenorean - Rank 3
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a very good post that, and one that answers many questions.



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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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post removed for being in err

-- Edited by Celethil at 02:32, 2006-10-25

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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I guess the Petty dwarves had a pretty hard time, since they died out quite quick, considering that Mim was the last one of his kind.
Though I don't know if only the other Dwarves were responsible for that.

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Peoples of Beleriand - Rank 1
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As far as I know there aren't many references to the Petty dwarves, and their history. Some more enlightened peoples may be able to find reference (possibly via H.O.M.E. or even the Letters) but one would have thought that if they died out quickly there must have been a reason, and most reasons for the eradication of races ultimately stems from themselves. BTW are there any other known races who have (by then end of the third age) been killed off??? [If anyone say the numenoreans then I'll not be happy as their blood line will live on forever through Elrond the half-elven and the heirs of Elendil.]

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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Actually, Eldarion's bloodline is connected to the Royal Lines of the Noldor, Sindar, and Numenor; and the Vanyar and Maiar. So he's the Heir of Elendil, Finwe, Elwe and maybe even Ingwe.


Ok I feel like an idiot now. I have to amend my earlier post. Belegost did not go to war against Doriath, but Nogrod did and thus ended Doriath. And because it occurs after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, Caranthir's Realm is not an issue. My apologies for not being thorough.




-- Edited by Celethil at 02:25, 2006-10-25

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