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Topic: arrogance and pride

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Black Numenorean - Rank 3
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Posts: 87
Date: Oct 14, 2006
arrogance and pride

why were the elves always so prideful and arrogant about everything? 

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: Oct 14, 2006
Becuase they were the Firstborn and were immortal, and were the first beings that interacted with the Powers and were the only ones allowed to Valinor. Plus the fact that Eru created them that way. All these things lead Elves to deduce that they are better than the rest.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Oct 14, 2006
not all of them are arrogant and pride
they do usually tend to look at things from a superior point of view, especially as far as matters about Men or Dwarves are concerned.
but I doubt most of them are arrogant or proud
I guess it depends on the person concerned, not necessarily the entire race had this feature of character

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Black Numenorean - Rank 3
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Date: Oct 14, 2006
Ok then, nearly all the important elves that were named.

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Elf of Rivendell - Rank 2
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Date: Oct 15, 2006
Personally, I do not think the Elves were arrogant.  I think they suffered more with pride than arrogance.  I believe they were kindly towards others overall.  As wtih all races there are always some who deviate from the general characterisations e.g. Noldor, King Thingol.

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Black Numenorean - Rank 3
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hense why i put pride in the title as well.

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Black Numenorean - Rank 3
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Date: Oct 18, 2006

The elves have always looked upon the dwarves with disdain, because they were not what was originally intended. Ilu'vatar, the one, Eru was the creator. He created the Elves, but the Dwarves were created by Aule, who was a craftsman, and was eager to teach, so created the dwarves against the will of Eru. Eru forgave him, but forbid him from waking the dwarves before the Elves (first born).


The emnity stems from the feeling of the Firstborn, thinking the Dwarves were interlopers in the intended world. They were sort of foisted on them, unwillingly.



-- Edited by Anduril at 04:40, 2006-10-18

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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Date: Oct 18, 2006
For the part of the Noldor, I think that can be attributed to the lies of Melkor in Valinor. As for the Sindar and the Sylvan Elves, I would say that any arrogance and pride they showed was probably learned from their cousins as they fled into Middle-Earth.

Apologies for such a brief answer. I am a lil pressed for time.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Oct 18, 2006
most of the Elves mentioned in the Sil have at least one or more reasons to act this way due to their troubled past or due to moments in their lives
many are indeed simply arrogant, but I don't think it is their nature do be so

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Peoples of Beleriand - Rank 1
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Date: Oct 19, 2006

I agree I'd see the nature of an elf as less towards arrogance over others but more a preferential seclusion stemming from a knowledge of superiority. After all the firstborn were the most skilled, most learned, oldest race on Arda (save the powers of course). Just as a side note I heard the dwarves creation mentioned earlier, originally Tolkien was gonig to have the dwarves as an evil race, but later changed his mind (perhaps the elves knew of this,lol )
Also, TM where's your quotes to support that statement!!! MWAHAHAHAHA



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Oct 19, 2006
I lost them somewhere in the Old Forest.

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Date: Oct 19, 2006
Well stated Aldudenie. I would have to agree completely, that it is not the nature of Elves to be arrogant and prideful. The Noldor were corrupted by Melkor and then the kinslayings set up enmity between the Teleri / Sindar and the Noldor in the midst of war against Melkor.

As for the Dwarves, I cannot agree that the Elves were angry at them for being interlopers in creation. It is clearly stated in the Silmarillion that the Noldor and the Dwarves are close in thought because of their relationship with Aule.




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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Black Numenorean - Rank 3
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Date: Oct 19, 2006
Celethil wrote:


As for the Dwarves, I cannot agree that the Elves were angry at them for being interlopers in creation. It is clearly stated in the Silmarillion that the Noldor and the Dwarves are close in thought because of their relationship with Aule.


ok, not the noldor, but most certainly the teleri. possibly.

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Peoples of Beleriand - Rank 1
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Date: Oct 20, 2006

Here's quote for you all,
"But when the time comes I will awaken them, and they shall be to thee as children; and often strif shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice."  --Illuvatar to Aule, Sil


 



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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: Oct 20, 2006
An excellent quote there Aldudenie! I forgot about that one.

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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Date: Oct 20, 2006
It is a good quote, I was just looking for instances of the actual strife occuring. Thingol's dispute with the Dwarves was sparked by the Silmarils, but I thought there were actual wars between the Elves and Dwarves.

Oops sorry. This post was supposed to be in the Dwarvish Forum, looks like I got sidetracked.

-- Edited by Celethil at 16:52, 2006-10-20

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Black Numenorean - Rank 3
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Date: Oct 20, 2006
I'm supprised many of the Teleri like Thingol worked with Dwarves. After all, they're total opposites.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Well it started when the Elves first established Beleriand, when Thingol and Melian wroguht Doriath. The Dwarves of the strongholds of the Blue mountains had there domains set up and both Elves and Dwarves agreed that if they joined together they could be stronger. The Dwarves built Menegroth for Thingol and Thingol i return gave treasures and such to the Dwarves. If it wasn't for this allegience it is possible that Doriath would not have rukled for so long.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Oct 20, 2006
still, the greed of the Dwarves and his one greed as well eventually brought Thingol his doom...

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Date: Oct 21, 2006
I think this has gone off topic.

I think it is safe to say that Thingol's arrogance first made an appearance once he found out about the kinslaying. He seemed a rather gracious host until he found out about that.

It also seems that the lust for the Silmaril just heightened that appearance of arrogance.

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Peoples of Beleriand - Rank 1
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Date: Oct 23, 2006
One has to remember that (thankyou for the reminder) Thingol was a Cala' Quendi he was one who had seen the light of the two trees BUT who had turned his back on it and had gone back to Middle Earth. When he learnt that elven lives had been slain because of something that only resembeled the light of the two trees he'd be pissed off. Yet when he beheld a Silmaril then he must have realised that he truley had misunderestimated the craftsmanship of Feanor. And once he beheld the light of the two trees he was encapsulated by it, thus leading to his conflict with the dwarves, and various others.

Did that make sense??? Coments... TM?

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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Date: Oct 23, 2006
I don't think that Thingol was connecting the kinslaying with the Silmarils. Though Feanor and his Sons swore that terrible oath, I do believe that Feanor was far more distraught over the loss of his father and that was well known. By the time Thingol heard about the kinslaying, Feanor was dead and I believe that Fingolfin had arrived in Beleriand. I would have to think about it some more as there is substance in your interpretation.

Although you do have a point that may answer a question I posed in another thread. Thank you.

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