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Topic: The end of the world

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Orc captain of Morgul - Rank 5
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Posts: 318
Date: May 17, 2006
The end of the world






I was reading stuff on the Encyclopedia of Arda website about the Ainur and the world, and it said that; 


'Little is known of the ultimate future of the Ainur, even by themselves, but it is said that, after the great battle at the end of the World, they will make a Second, even greater, Music with the Children of Iluvatar.'  (link: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/ )


I this very interesting. Does anyone have any quotes that back this up?


Also, what are your thoughts about this 'Great battle', i.e who do you think would be in it and why and what would be different in a new world created by an 'even greater music'?


 



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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: May 17, 2006

What you are refering to is known as the Last Battle and the Day of Doom/Dagor Dagorath.


It goes something like this:


Long after the War of The Ring when all is at peace once more in the World it is said that Morgoth finds a way to break through the Door to the Night (Which is what he was thrown out of, it leads into the Void) and re-enter Arda.
He enters Valinor itself and with him he brings all the creatures of evil and corruption he has ever Possessed, including Maiar like Balrogs and probably Sauron.
This is the largest battle ever to arise and it takes place on the plains of Valinor. Ar-Pharazon who went crashing down into the abyss with the Isle of Numenor rises from the deep and fights for the valar i think.
It is said that during this Batlle Gandalf/Olorin slays Sauron and Turin Turumbar, a man slays Morgoth himself becuase of the Curse Morgoth put upon him and his family.
Morgoths, Sauron and the Balarog spirits then go back to Iluvatar for safe keeping so to speak.


To destroy Melkor you have to destroy the world itself (just like you have to destroy the Ring to vanquish Sauron). This is becuase Morgoth put so much of his power into Arda.

Once melkor is destroyed the world is broken and it is made anew. This is known as the second Great Theme becuase it does not have melkors discord in it like the first.


This was how the world was meant to be when the Ainur looked into the vision that Eru gave them before the world begun.


Some useful quotes:


"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined." (Anulindale)
What Eru is saying here is that nothing can be done against his will becuase he that attemps this shall prove but his instrument in the second Great Theme.


"But I think it was not so. Manwë will not descend from the Mountain until Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns. 8 To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eönwë. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coëval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olórin was his name. But of Olórin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf." (Unfinished Tales)


"But Ar-Pharazôn the King and the mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills: there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom."(The Silmarillion)


It is doubtful that you will find any more quotes on this subject as Tolkien only had a brief idear of this. This however is the general idear.


If you are interested in hearing more about this and the Fourth age you should see this Fanfic from someone in the Plaza - http://www.lotrplaza.com/forum/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=21&TopicID=194270&PagePosition=1



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Elves of the Third Age - Rank 1
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Date: May 17, 2006
Wow, I didn't know that! But do you believe the fourth age could have become 'our world', where only men arised and probably all of the Ainur. Maybe not right away, probably dwarves and elves 'survived' in the Music (for every 'good' creature were dear to the children of Iluvatar) but probably later on it turned out to be only men on ME...

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: May 17, 2006

It is not known when the Battle took place. More likely it was at the end of the fourth age.


After the Battle the Dwarves help Aule rebuild the world, but then along with the Elves and Ainur, they go back to Eru and the second great theme is devoted to the dominion of Men.



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Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!

Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 17, 2006
no...we are now at the beginning ofthe seventh age
the fall of the third Reich was the end of the sixth age...
tolkien said that...hehe
but I don't believe that much
I mean I like lotr, but it is fantasy

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: May 18, 2006
What difference does that make? I would far sooner live in Arda than in this present day world!

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Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!

Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 18, 2006
many say that
like:
"I'd go to Arda...and fight for honor"
let's be serious
most inhabitants lived a simple and dull life just like in the dark ages in Europe.
there would be a lof of danger and you would have to fight to live another day...
not all were like Aragorn or Elrond

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: May 18, 2006

I don't know how you can say that TM. There were many long stretches when evil was not present and people could do as they likes.


You say life was dull, but each man could, if he wanted, get a horse and some provisions and become a wanderer like Gandalf. It did not have to be like the Middle-ages in 1100.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 18, 2006
usually you didn't have a choice
normal people couldn't usually afford a horse
and wanderers...Aragorn managed to live in the wild because of his skills...but a s a normal man...you would probably end up in a trolls belly..

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: May 18, 2006
Forgive me but could you quote that the majority of ME residents could not afford Horses?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 18, 2006
no...but it is a fact
except the Rohirrim, horses were not a normal commodity.
read the books
how many normal Gondorians owned a horse for example?
how many Druedain had horses?
you shouldn't think that ME was just one big fun adventure
if you would be there it wouldn't be a fantasy...a game
your life could end in an instant...

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: May 18, 2006

How could it? Admittedly there were rough times, but there were also many peaceful times.


As for the horses, the Druedain did not have them as they were secretive forest folk. Gondor did not have many of them becuase they just did not see the need for them as there stregth lied in the fortresses, as opposed to Rohan which need swift steeds to save the day. Not becuase Gondor was too poorto get them.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 18, 2006
not in the army
you say that any normal person in ME, every peasant would have the possibility to get a horse
and I doubt that could be true...
unfortunately Tolkien never describes the life of the normal and simple people...but you can be sure that not all could afford it...
and anyway mouth...I doubt you would go to ME to be a simple farmer and work the land


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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: May 25, 2006
No I would go to Middle-earth to be a wanderer like I said.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: May 26, 2006
TM you could find a horse anywhere on the plains of Rohan. Catch one and tame it, simple as, not a penny spent.

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Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!

Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 26, 2006
Horses don't just run around Rohan waiting to be tamed. There are wild horses, but these are the hardest to tame. Unless you are very very very good at that, you have no chance.

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Soldier of the East - Rank 4
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Date: Oct 10, 2006

I read some information about the end of the world in HoME, the shaping of middle-earth. Its either the fourth or fivth book in the series.


PS, I can't believe you guys have spent half this thread talking about people of the twentieth century living in Ea.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Oct 10, 2006
could you perhaps give some quotes...
I don't own the book at the time.

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Soldier of the East - Rank 4
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Date: Oct 10, 2006
Sorry, I don't have it either. I got it from the library were we used to live.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Oct 10, 2006
no problem, I am hoping to get the HOME series as ebooks as well soon
interesting, I thought HOME4 didn't include information about the Dagor Dagorath
when I'll get it I'll look that up

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