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Topic: Melkor greater than Eru?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Posts: 3118
Date: Jun 1, 2006
RE: Melkor greater than Eru?

no, it was his power and he was the only one to have it
he didn't detach it when he put it in the center of Ea, he simply used this power.
"Therefore Ilúvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Eä."
Valaquenta
now it does seem it was more of a thing, but it was in fact the power of Eru

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: Jun 1, 2006
You cannot quote that TM so we must take it as a 'Thing'.

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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Date: Aug 17, 2006
I cannot believe you guys did not find a quote in the Silmarillion to clear this up.

'And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.' - Music of the Ainur, Silmarillion


There is no comparison between Eru and Melkor. As is also explained in the Music of the Ainur, the Ainur were created from the thoughts of Eru and in the beginning were limited in understanding to that part of his thoughts from which they sprung. At no point was Melkor able to do anything he wasnt allowed to do.

Another point to keep in mind is that Melkor was disrupting the music of the Ainur, not Eru. Think of Eru as the conductor and Melkor having an annoyingly loud horn. Eru was allowing ALL of the Ainur to have a hand in creation. At any point he could have stopped Melkor but that was not part of the plan.


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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: Aug 17, 2006

'And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.' - Music of the Ainur, Silmarillion

Yes but that is Eru saying that so he would be biased towards himself.


When Melkor rebelled the firt time Eru smiled and corrected the theme again. But when Eru rose a second time he was stern - he was not merely 'allowing' what was taking place. Then he rose a third time and was terible to behod.


In short Eru tried to correct the theme twice, both times Melkor's discord rose above to challenge the theme. So in the end Eru has to make all music, including his own to cease. He had no more music left which could surpass Melkor's.


And if his face was 'Terrible to behold', then i would hardly say Eru was simply 'allowing Melor's music'.



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Auta  i  lómë! 
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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Date: Aug 17, 2006
The Silmarillion does not mention Eru correcting his themes, but rather beginning a new theme each time. It does mention that themes shall be played aright after the end of days by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Iluvatar.

We do know that Eru has a temper when disobeyed and does not mind breaking the world or reshaping the world to get his point across. Which would explain his stern countenance and then being terrible to behold.

As for having no more music, Eru was never singing, the Ainur were. And when the task was complete, Eru ends it by raising both hands. The whole chapter is named Music of the AINUR.

If Melkor was anywhere near as powerful as Eru, there would be no need for him to stop his music when commanded to. Since it would appear that Eru is determining the beginning and the ending of existence, I dont think there is a question about which is more powerful.

A better argument would be Melkor vs the Valar.

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: Aug 18, 2006
I am not saying Melkor was always more poweful than Eru. All I was saying is that he showed Power at least equal to Eru during the music of the Ainur.

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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Date: Aug 18, 2006
I thought I addressed that.

Melkor never matched his might against Eru. He was singing and creating discord among the Ainur. Eru only signalled the beginning of each theme and end of the music.

Its hard to say Melkor showed equal power when he never did anything to show that. He did however show that he was mightiest of the Ainur.

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: Aug 20, 2006
Celethil wrote:


Melkor never matched his might against Eru.



This is what we are debating. Do you have any quotes from an impartial source that states that Melkor was not near, or equal to the power of Eru during the time of his musical discord?

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Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!

Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Date: Aug 22, 2006
We are not debating Melkor matching his might against Eru, but those in support of the theory that Melkor was near in might to Eru during the musical discord are only using the story of the Music of the Ainur to support their argument which gives no indication as to how powerful Melkor is in relation to Eru.

There are no quotes that would support either side of the discussion. Only inference from reading the Music of the Ainur, which does not state at any point that Melkor was ever in direct conflict with Eru, but rather with the Ainur.

Given what we know about Melkor, it seems implausible that if he were near in might to Eru, he would not have challenged him directly, as he shows no reservation in challenging the Ainur. He neither gives Eru direct challenge nor is he able to secure the Flame Imperishable which he could not locate in the void and which is stated to be with Eru.

Regarding an impartial quote....

'And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

'And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern.'

Both Eru's words and the account of what was happening match. If you are not willing to take Tolkien's congruent accounts as impartial I don't know what you want. And since we are not debating whether Melkor ever matched his might against Eru, is there any reason other than Melkor's conflict with the Ainur to think that his might was even close to that of Eru?


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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Posts: 2372
Date: Aug 22, 2006

Celethil - How can you say Melkor was not rebelling against Eru?


Eru set out new themes of Music to settle the Ainur, Melkor's discord rose to challenge it. Simple as that. Direct rebellion. And the fact remains that in the end Eru had no music strong enough to subdue Melkor's discord - only equal it.



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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Posts: 619
Date: Aug 22, 2006
Please read my posts carefully. At no point did I say that Melkor was not rebelling against Eru. I said that Melkor does not directly challenge Eru. Melkor's music is in direct challenge to that of the Ainur.

You keep mentioning Eru having no music strong enough to subdue Melkor's discord and I keep saying that Eru was not making the music, the Ainur were.

Your fact is not a fact since Eru is not making any music. Eru gives a theme and then the Ainur make music and Melkor makes music in opposition and the process repeats until finally Eru ends the music when the task is complete.

The details of the account are quite clear, stating that Melkor and the Ainur were making music. If you have anything that states that Eru was making music rather than introducing the themes, please share. Until this thread began, I did think that Eru was making the music with the Ainur and then I read the story carefully and noticed that it does state clearly that it is the music of the Ainur, thus the title of the story.

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Elf of Beleriand - Rank 2
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Posts: 42
Date: Jan 8, 2007
wow, just read this thread, very interesting.  I can't see melkor ever being more powerfull than eru.  I think when Melkor starts his own theme the first time, its because of the jealousy of eru that he can not do what eru can.  He tries, but in the end he did nothing more than any of the other ainur, they all got the parts of their song built into ea.  So in mind it may not of been what Eru was looking for when he was conducting the Aiunur, but he took what Melkor made and interweived it with the rest of the music.  I also think, that yes in the begining as stated melkor was the most powerfull of the ainur, but perhaps his penalty for disobeying eru was that for every evil deed he did, or every bad thing that he made, he had to tap his own power and put it forth into that evil, and by doing that he lost power.  Where as all good ainur, especially the valar, never seemed to lose any of their power and that is why melkor in the end was chained up and put away till the end of time.  Just my two cents.

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