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Topic: Melkor greater than Eru?

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Melkor greater than Eru?

Calm down, i know it sounds absurd. But perhaps not so.


As we all know the Music of The Ainur was possibly the greatest event ever in Tolkiens world, partiaslly forming Ea itself with the vision etc.


However When Melkors music rises to challenge Erus appointed theme it succeeds. then Eru creates a new theme and again melkors overides it. And a third time. The last time however Eru is spent on Music and livid. he has to resort to one long deep note to prevent Melkors music continuing.


It seems to me that melkor therefore was greater than Eru as Eru could not gainstay melkor music with a comparison, he has to resort to a deep note to stop the music - He could not down melkor music with a theme of his own.


Is Melkor greater than eru at this time?


As we know Tolkien based much of his world on christianity. Often Satan rose above Gods power but always decended again. Is Melkor mightier than Iluvatar at this time?



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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indeed Melkor does resemble Lucifer, but not totally. I doubt that he was ever more powerfull then Eru. All was just an appearence, just as his creations. He was not able to create like Eru, he only could used mockery. His works all seemed of great skill, but again it was only under the temptation of power. In truth, Melkor was never as strong as Eru and would never be. even Satan is never stronger then God, but his power lies in lies and deceit that make us think of him as more powerfull.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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I steadfastly rufuse the 'Evil can never win' approach but your points are acknowledged. you have not however rebutted my example above. Melkor music was greater than Erus and Eru could not change that.


Remember  -Eru could not give life by himself, he needed the Flame Imperishable. It is assumed he simply 'had' that from the beginning as Tolkien does not state it was made by Eru himself. Perhaps the only reason Eru is powerful is becuase of the Flame imperishable.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Melkor did NOT create a new theme, remember that.
The new theme was just a mockery of the old theme, and as you see in the end Eru didn't punish Melkor, he just used his power do create a theme better then Melkor's mockery, and he made Melkor feel ashamed. Can you show me quotes Melkor was better or stronger then Eru? because considering that episode I doubt we can say Melkor was stronger.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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No melkor kept his old theme but enhanced it beyond his power. Eru set new themes out but they were overidden by melkor - Eru had to stop music and resort to a different tactic to stop Melkors music as his was clearly not powerful enough.


You know full well there is no quote saying that melkor was more powerful than Eru and I am not suggesting that. What i am saying is was melkor more powerful than Eru in this brief spell of contest, it appears so.


You mention melkors shame, however you do not mention his anger that came from that shame, showing that he was not perhaps afraid of Eru. And Eru does not shout at melkor becuase perhaps he is not sure what might arise from Melkors anger?



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Good point mouth, though I may have an answer for this (not sure if its a good answer or will be accepted by TM but...) IF we take for example Melkors Maia Sauron - More powerful than Gandalf (this topic is discussed elsewhere) - and we take Melkors people Orcs - More powerful than humans (in general strength of arms anyhow), why not indeed should Melkors music be more powerful than Eru's. Setting asside the fact that Eru created Music, If I made a musical tune and someone else of great musical prowess modified (i.e. corrupted) it more often than not the new version would be better, but I being THE creator would remain steadfast that my original was the best and so try it again but it would never out weigh the new version. Evil is very often stronger than good in many ways, the ways however are more obvious ways for evil has more options to it, where as good has "rules" by which it must adhere, just as Eru would have had musical rules to which he created his piece, Melkor would have been bad and broken those rules thereby being able to do more and thus better things.

As for the flame imperishable, it says that Melkor could not find it for it was always with Illuvatar that could imply that it was a part of him which would mean that he didn't 'need' it parsay because it would always be there.

Does Satan descend because he loses/because God makes him or because he chooses to. With the God vs the Devil, God cannot influence mankind because he gave them free will, the devil however doesn't care about freewill and God cannot stop this because even freewill that is corrupted and manipulated is still freewill. (Good has rules, Evil does not).

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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lol...now people are afraid of what I will say...no prob
but:
1. the comparisons are not best chosen, but I understand what you want to say
Olorin says that if got the ring an even darker lorder would rise and he is presented as the wisest Maia so I doubt that Sauron was stronger then he
2. Orcs should be compared to Elves, as they were made as a mockery of the Elves. Also no mockery could ever be as good as the original
About the music, as I said, the fact that Melkor's power in that theme was as strong as Eru's was only a lie and an appearence, because he never had the necessary power to totally change Eru's theme. He only managed to make a mockery of it and to disrupt the song, but he was not able to create a song of his own that would change everything.
The music as we know resulted into Arda, so if Melkor's song would have been as strong as Eru's all of Arda would have been after his own ideas.
And even in Christian tradition God seems to be strong as Satan, but actually he is much stronger. He just as Eru doesn't show his true power usually. It is only in our minds that Satan is as strong as God because we are tempted by him and seeing what he can do we believe in this appearence. But I believe that comparing this to God and Satan might not be fair to people of other religions, and we can not be sure Tolkien intended it to turn that way...

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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OK then I will say - Melkors distorted theme of the originally assigned theme was greater than any theme that could be re-made by Eru


Same difference. Thanks for agreeing, Olorin, Maiar.



-- Edited by The One at 20:51, 2006-05-02

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Now, back to your discussion.  I must say, it's quite an interesting topic, although I don't have much to contribute myself...

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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hmm...I wouldn't really say that the fact Eru stopped the music because he wasn't strong enough. I would say he did it because he was wise. He isn't like Melkor, fighting to the end, he realised that if he continued the fight with Melkor the theme would be even more corrupted, and even worse things would appear in the world.
So instead of endangering the theme even more, he simply stopped and made another one.
there is a proverb in my language, I think it is also in English...
The man who backs up first, is the wiser one.
So Eru wasn't beeing weaker, he was wiser, and thus stronger.

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mouthofsauron, I don't really understand what you're talking about when you say that Eru couldn't subdue Melkor's music.  It clearly states in the Silmarillion, Ainulindale, that the first theme was subdued by Melkor's discord, the second theme Eru created was equal in 'strength' to Melkor's, and the third theme Eru created drowned Melkor's music.  The quote below supports what I have said. 

Then again Iluvatar arose, and the Ainur percieved that his countenance was stern; and he lifted up his right hand, and Behold! a third theme grew amid the confusion, and it was unlike the others. For it seemed at first soft and sweet, a mere rippling of gentle sounds in delicate melodies; but it could not be quenched, and it took to itself power and profundity. And it seemed at last that there were two musics progressing at one time before the seat of Iluvatar, and they were utterly at variance. The one was deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came. The other had  now acheived a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes.  And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern. 



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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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The first theme Eru made was drowned out by Melkor. The second lasted much longer and challenged Melkors music moreso, but in the end Melkors endlessly repeated theme drowned it out so then Eru lets forth a long deep note - not a theme, but a note, to make all music cease.


To me this indicates that Melkors music managed to subdue Eru's and Eru has to resort to an extreme measure to make it stop - his themes could not do that.



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Not an extreme meausure, but as I said the wiser way. And if you say Melkor was so strong how come he wasn't able to win the battle in the end?
No Melkor wasn't stronger then nor was he ever.
Eru just didn't want to continue a needless fight, and wisely he showed his power in another way, by stopping the fight and creating a new theme.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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He did not create a new THEME. He simply did one NOTE to stop all music. He did not create another theme after that becuase he new Melkors theme would contend it.

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do you have any proof that he did that out of weakness and not out of wisdom?
maybe some quotes to clearly show that it was not wisdom.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Maybe some quotes to show if it was wisdom on your part?

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well I asked you first
well, ok, I don't have necessarily quotes that show it was wisdom, but I have however quotes that show that Melkor#s music wasnt that strong in the first place.
"The one was deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came. The other had now achieved a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern."
as you can see I doubt Eru would have had any reason to consider Melkor stronger and stop the music for that reason.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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That quote, suffice to say proves nothing.


It is simply saying the style of Melkors music was at complete difference to Erus theme. It was endlessly repeated, Loud, vain, thus if anything would make it very strong.


If you had a flute and were playing a harmonious but powerful tune, whereas I had a single drum with a stick and kept loudly beating continually, who would be overwhelmed? You becuase my music is easy to do and thus more effort can go into its power whereas you have to concentrate on the complexness of the tune as well as its power.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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"And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern."
As you see Eru's music was the stronger one, as he practically managed to anihilate any attempt of Melkor to drown his music.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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"Then it seemed that two themes were being played and each was utterly at variance" (something like that)


Thus we can see That Erus did not succeed in drowning Melkors.


Also you did not comment on my good analogy.



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your good analogy?
my quote says clearly that Eru's music simply took the notes from Melkor's music and anihilated their power.
that is my comment.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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No the quote is NOT saying that. It simply saying that Eru's theme took notes from Melkors and wove them into itself - NOTHING to do with Anihilating Melkors music!


Also my analogy of the Flute vs drum above.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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well, if that is the way you see it ok, I won't continue
but I personally see it as proof for stronger music

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Very well. See it as you will.

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I'll restate the crucial evidence: 

And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern.

I'll compare this to a schoolyard fight.  Say one of the kids was the son of a wrestler, and the other knew tai chi (a martial art that emphasizes balance and using your enemy's imbalances against him).  The wrestler kid would be like Melkor's music, and the other like Eru's, okay?  So, if the wrestler kid's strongest blows and most powerful hits were dodged and turned against him ('woven into its own solemn pattern') by the other kid, I would assume that the other kid will most likely win, because if the wrestler kid's strongest blows had no effect, then what would?  Thus, I say in conclusion, that Eru's music was greater than Melkor's and yet for some unseen reason Eru chose to end the discord. 



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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Ok but does that mean Erus' music is destroying Melkors or that its just managing to hold it off? I favour the latter.


But then you have the fact that if the theme was Holding off Melkors music why would Eru be so angry to rise a third Time?



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why?
because he gave Melkor a last chance
a last chance to back off and repent
but as Melkor didn't he saw no other choice but to put an end to that dispute.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Exactly The Might, Exactly. He put an end to it. His second theme could not put an end to it he had to resort to extreme measures. You have just proved my point.

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no I haven't
i proved that he didn't want to continue the fight, so he showed his greater power by ending the music and starting a third and greater theme.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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He did not start a third theme, The might!

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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sorry, wasn't attentive...I was still thinking about themes.
no I meant stopped the music.
it was not a sign of cowardness it was a sign of wisdom

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Maybe it was wise, but it was done out of anger and frustration that his themes could not drive back Melkors.

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Melkor was maybe wiser in the way of his strategy, he knew of evil,while Eru did not, but I don't think he was greater-after all-Eru created Melkor,not the other way;)

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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We know that Melkor is the Dark Power whilst Eru is the Light power (though sometimes people class Manwe as the Light power). Aren't light and darkness meant to be ballanced, thus the power of each is equal?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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No Eru was not the Light Power, he was 'THE' Power...the ultimate Power

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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So who was the 'Light Power'? If you say Manwe then you are incorrect. Tolkien later on implied that the Valar were rather Angels in Arda rather than Gods.
I think you will find that Eru is not 'The Power' becuase to be that you have to be the Power of both Good and Evil and we know that only Melkor was the true Power of evil.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Eru is The One, meaning noone else is equal to him. ever.
he created good and evil, and he is greatest
just like saying that in Christianity God is equal to Satan...totally false

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Well I am not going back into this as it has been finished but in my view Eru has the same power to Melkor - the only thing that makes him greater is the Flame Imperishable which is a possession not a part of Eru so does not count.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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it was not a possesition, it was not a thing, it was his power, his skill, his ability to create things.
only he had it because he was The One, the greatest, not simply a power of Light

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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The reason he is called 'The One' is becuase he was the origin of all, not nesserasarily the Greatest.


The Flame Imperishable is a possession not an ability. He put some of it forth into the center of Ea, hence it was detachable from himself and he could judge quan****ies of it, it was a possession.



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