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Topic: Angmar vs Arnor

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Angmar vs Arnor
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When Sauron sent Angmar north from Dol-Guldur in 1350 how could he compete against an already established realm like Arnor. Angmars troops would have a hell of alot of dangers such as northern Mirkwood Elves, Rivendell Elves before he could even reach the Ettenmoors in the very north. He would surely be hard down on numbers and although Arnor had troubles of its own I still don't see how Angmar could have been able to hold up his defences with Arnor and other dwarven/Elven settlements to the West, Rivendell and Dwarves of misty mountains to the south and Dwarves of the Grey mountains and Mirkwood Elves to the East.
He would be amidst a sea of enemies.



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Well, there is no evidence of which route the Witch-King took to reach Angmar.  Carn Dum was to the north of the Misty Mountains, so I don't see why the Witch-King could avoid all battle by going northwards before westwards.  He could travel up through Rhun, and then westwards through the Withered Heath, or even north of the Ered Mithrim.  By taking this route, he would not have to pass by any enemies besides the Dwarves of the Grey Mountains (since the Iron Hills were not yet established), who were already occupied by the dragons that also lived there.

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But mouthofsauron111 does have a point. Angmars realm would be in the middle of Arnor, Rivendell, Northern Mirkwood, Grey mountains, Dwarven misty mountain strongholds, Grey havens in the far west, The shire and blocking Angmars way directly south was Lorien. All these realms would isolate Angmar from Saurons most northern fortress in southern Mirkwood.


How did he survive???



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Glorfindel and mouthofsauron, before I comment about the topic itself, just one small point.  Both of you seem to be talking of Angmar as if it is a person.  Angmar was the name of the realm of the Witch-King, which had its capital at Carn Dum.  Although a small point, I feel that it should be emphasized.


Glorfindel, the realm of Angmar was not, as you say, surrounded by enemies.  All of the enemies that you have mentioned were all to the south of Angmar with the exception of the Grey Mountains, which were parallel to the southern reaches of Angmar.  True, pretty much all of the lands southwards of Angmar were hostile, but the east and north (since there was really no point in going west with the Bay of Forochel not too far distant).


However, in re-reading the initial question, I neglected to address the issue of protecting Angmar's borders once the realm itself was established.  The Dwarves of the Grey Mountains were primarily preoccupied by the dragons of the region, so there was little threat from them.  Lindon was too far distant to launch an assault that was not accompanied by a long warning.  The Elves of Mirkwood were concerned with Dol Gulder in the south of the forest, leaving Rivendell and Arnor.  The best defense against both in this case was an assault, which the Witch-King did through Rhudaur.  By using the Men of Arnor against themselves, any threat from both Arnor and Imladris was essentially negated, since both had to deal with Rhudaur before they could come to Angmar.



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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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He is known as 'Angmar' for short.
Also you seem to be suggesting that the way North was some kind of public footpath. In the very North behind the grey mountains is where the Goblins and Dwarves drove the Dragons from the mountains. Angmar would have no control over them and I think they are quite abundent there. Also apart from this huge risk you are coming to where was the eastern part of the Land of Morgoth which he did not occupy for it was dreadfully cold and inhospitible.


In short terms the path North was the worst out of them all.



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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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I would say the Witchking would be better off establishing a realm west of Isengard but south of Arnor. A wide open land, and although it was also surrounded by enemies it had more ways of escape.



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it could be a good idea.

actually the construction of Angmar in the north east was planned.
the witchking wated to use that area as a place to launch attacks on Arnor from the north and it did serve his purpose well.
the problem is no kingdom could have been created where you say.
because there was no way to get there.
they had no boats so by water is not an option.
in the south and east you have Gondor.
in the north you have Arnor.
you only have one way - the Pass of Caradhras, which went above Moria which was at the time controlled by dwarves.
so...no hope at all.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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To reach this place I am talking about, east of Eregion, the WK could have gone through Rohan. Now I am not sure if I am correct but Rohan had not yet been given to Eorl the Young by Cirion(?), so this would be a safe passage.

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still no way
firstly Rohan was still Gondor, even though the province didn't have a huge population, no way the witch king could have gone through it.
and there is another, even bigger problem.
there was no way to cross the Anduin in that region.
so they had to somehow go north, cross there and then cross the Limlight.
but the Limlight was well defended as it was the northest region of Gondor
and another thing
a kindom there would be extremely vulnerable.
from west, north, south and east.
South from Gondor.
East from Gondor and from Moria
North from Arnor
and finally west by Gondor's navy.

a kingdom far in the north could only be attacked from the south west.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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I agree that the North would be the main threat, but overall it was a better strategic postion than Angmar.


Firstly lets analyse Angmar.


North - Goblins that may not be utterly under Angmars control. Dragons in the very North which Angmar could not control.
Threat level: 1 minimum threat.


West - Northern Arnor, Grey Havens-Mithlond, Dwarves of the Ered Luin.
Threat level: 3, High threat


East - Still minor threat from goblins but Also Northern Mirkwood and very far East was Erebor.
Threat level: 2, medium threat.


South - Most of Arnor, Minor threat from the Shire, Rivendell, and Dwarfs from the Mountains of Mist.
Threat level: 3 High threat.


Total threat level- 9/12


Next lets Analyse this place I speak of (west of Isengard)


North - All of Arnor, The Shire, Grey havens, Rivendell, Dwarfs of Ered Luin.
Threat level: 3, high threat


East - Minor threat from very north of Gondor and Lorien, both of which would deal mainly with Dol,guldur.
Threat Level: 1, low threat

South - Gondor.
Threat level: 2, medium threat, but Gondor mainly dealt with the men of the East and South and Dol guldur.


West - -Void-
Threat level - 0, Unless Valinor would launch an asualt (threat level - 10!). Gondor would have sent ships to places like Umbar and Pelagir, Not here.


Total threat level - 6/12


Now don't go saying this post is rubbish, i thought it was a pretty good way of doing it and its taken me a while!



-- Edited by mouthofsauron111 at 22:36, 2006-05-14

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now, just to make sure there are no big misunderstandings here is a map of me with a red point where carn dum is.
carn dum was the main fortress of Angmar, and no, not its capital.



-- Edited by The Might at 09:25, 2006-05-15

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Right OK. Well I am talking about a place between the river Isen and Greyflood, near the shores of the Sea.


Angmar is a little Northwest of what I thought it was but my analysing is still roughly accurate with a couple of alterations.



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I have made a few changes on the map as I took a better look at the map in lotr and I realised I was wrong.
anyway, the red point is Carn Dum, the blue line are the Mountains of Angmar and the green area is more or less the territory of Angmar.
so as you see, Angmar was even better protected. the only way o attack was through the mountain pass where Carn Dum was, or passing through the north where the bay of Forochel was.
and from south the only way of attack was to pass between Mount Gundabad and the Ered Mithrin.
and from the north, I doubt that dragons or the desert worms ever attacked Angmar, as this is never mentioned.
so you see, Angmar had indeed a good position.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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I won't deny it was not a reasonable position but I still feel as though he was blocked in. He cn go scarecely further north becuase of the Inhospitible cold, so one strong force from the south would finish him.


How about making a change to the map to show the place where I am on about? Colour it in yellow. West of Isengard between the Isen and Greyflood.
This was it will be better for other to make an opinion.



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ok here is the map with a purple point where mouthofsauron says Angmar should have been built.



and again I say:
1. there is absolutely no way a lrge force could get there:
a. as they had no boats so a way by sea is not an option
b. in the south you have Gondor
c. in the north you have Arnor
d. in the east you have to first cross through Ithilien, and then the Anduin, and then the Limlight (very close to Fangorn and the Ents), and then again through Anorien and Calenardhon (not to mention between Orthanc and the fortress of Aglarond), which is impossible
e. no way through the Misty Mountains, as the Pass of Caradhras was firstly near Lorien, so the Elves would know the witchking was there and secondly very close to Moria, so no way to pass through there

2. even if, though impossible, you could get to the place mouthofsauron says with a large army, you wouldn't last at all.
attacks from all sides - Gondor in the south and the east, Gondor's navy in the west and Arnor in the north.


-- Edited by The Might at 10:49, 2006-05-15

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Angmar was sent from Dol Guldar, not Mordor (Ithilien would not come into it). All he would have to do to get to where I am talking about is go through Rohan, which had not been established yet.


Gondor had enough on there plates contending with the men of the south and east. The hold over the east near Rhun was slowly being depleted. Arnor was fighting amoungst themselves.


I don't see where you have marked my chosen place for the WK, The might?



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you are really funny...
you still don't see how impossible it is to get from Dol guldur to the purple point I made between the Isen and the Greyflood
the best possible route for your idea was to cross the Anduin at the Gladden Fields, turn south, pass near Lorien (which would immediately alert the Elves and maybe the dwarves), cross the Limlight which was dangerously near Fangorn and whcih was well protected as it was a frontier of Gondor, then cross the Entwash which was also well protected, then pass through the fields of Calenradhon (which no matter if was given to the Rohrrim or not was still a province, and the worst part, pass through the big defence system of Gondor is the west, the tower of Orthanc and the Ring of Angrenost on one side and the Fortress of the caves of Aglarond on the other side. and then cross the Isen by the fords which were also defended.
no way...Gondor's army would respond very soon and destroy you.
and even if you made it, you would soon be destroyed...as I already said

and please mouthofsauron, don't start saying you are right as in other threads and make an unnecessary discussion
I have already shown there are 1000 reasons why the WK shouldn't have taken the way you said, but the other one to the north.
he would be less vunerable and to go the way you said is impossible.

-- Edited by The Might at 11:02, 2006-05-15

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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No. Angmar could go south from Guldur throught the Old Brown lands to the Emyn muil, then west throught Rohan.


I will say this for the last time - Gondor were increasingly getter weaker, even though they were at the height of there power. They were being bombarded by Harad and the East. Northern Gondor had to suffer Dol Guldur. None of Gondor was fit to make yet another army to set to destroy the WK.
Arnor was fighting largly amoung itself and was only fit for defence, not attack.


My analogy back up the thread is accurate. Lets wait to here some other opinions.



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do you see the black line passing near Emyn Muil?
that is the Anduin
and there is NO WAY to pass the Anduin there as the orcs didn't go in water, that is why also going by sea was not a possibility.
firstly, please note the only places the Anduin could be crossed where in the north at the Gladden Fields or the Carrock.
and then you have to cross the Limlight.
and please stop using the term Rohan, but use Calenardhon.

and as I said, you know this is an impossible idea, still you will defend it for ever continously saying that Gondor was very weak.
Gondor was strong and its borders were impassable by the way you said.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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You really like arguments don't you The Might?


Gondor was too stretched. full stop.


I m pretty sure the WK would have found some way to cross the Anduin, even if it meant sailing across. Whether Orcs don't like water or not is irrelevent - If WK said for them to cross, they would.


I use Rohan becuase its shorter, and I will continue to do so.



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you really don't see that it was impossible.
he COULD NOT HAVE CROSSED THE ANDUIN.
EVER.
it was too well protected.
just as was Calenardhon.
ok...enough
please tell me 3 reasons why the position was better to fight against Arnor

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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I suggest you read my analogy thread above the map. You have given it no attention probably due to the fact that you cannot find fault with it.



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I have.
and even though it isn't rubbish, it has many mistakes
here they are:

"North - Goblins that may not be utterly under Angmars control. Dragons in the very North which Angmar could not control.
Threat level: 1 minimum threat."
the goblins and dragons never attacked Angmar so the threat level was actually more like 0.

"West - Northern Arnor, Grey Havens-Mithlond, Dwarves of the Ered Luin.
Threat level: 3, High threat"
the threat level is ok, but, the dwarves had other things to do ant please don't even bring up the Grey Havens as they were not interested at all.

"East - Still minor threat from goblins but Also Northern Mirkwood and very far East was Erebor.
Threat level: 2, medium threat."
you shouldn't count the elves as they were not interested at all, just as little dangerous as the dwarves. as for thegoblins, they were no threat as most joined and the others fled

"South - Most of Arnor, Minor threat from the Shire, Rivendell, and Dwarfs from the Mountains of Mist.
Threat level: 3 High threat."
the dwarves in Moria would not attack unless the witchking would attack them.
though Arnor and Rivendell were indeed dangeorus.

"Total threat level- 9/12"
I would rather give it a 7/12

"Next lets Analyse this place I speak of (west of Isengard)"

"North - All of Arnor, The Shire, Grey havens, Rivendell, Dwarfs of Ered Luin.
Threat level: 3, high threat"
as I said the dwarves would not attack, nor would the elves of the grey havens.
but the threat level is ok.

"East - Minor threat from very north of Gondor and Lorien, both of which would deal mainly with Dol,guldur.
Threat Level: 1, low threat"
totally wrong.
this was a huge threat.
not Lorien but Gondor.
huge threat level so 3.
it was not the first time Gondor fought enemies in the west, and for them it would be a priority to eliminate the Wk.


South - Gondor.
Threat level: 2, medium threat, but Gondor mainly dealt with the men of the East and South and Dol guldur.
again wrong for the same reason as above, but ok, level 2 is ok as Gondor would probably attack from the east

"West - -Void-
Threat level - 0, Unless Valinor would launch an asualt (threat level - 10!). Gondor would have sent ships to places like Umbar and Pelagir, Not here."
No navy?
totally wrong.
do you know how Angmar was really destroyed?
by the navy of Gondor under Earnur. so threat level 3.

Total threat level - 11/12

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Then Our views completely differ. Gondor was a very small threat, wheras you think it was a big threat.


If you have read UT at all you will know how pushed Gondor was with its threat in the south and East, it was struggling to maintain its position. They could not just go and summon a force great enough to attack Angmar.


Therefore if you count Gondor as a minimum threat that would knock my places threat level back to 6/12.



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firstly I think the idea of commenting how dangerous a kingdom between the Isen and the Greyflood would be is unnecessary because there was no way it could be created. No way that the witch king could cross the Anduin, or the Limlight with a great force.
and if he can't cross the Anduin or the Limlight there is no way he could have reached the place you say.

but still, to humor you, I will play along and prove that even if this fantasy kingdom would have been created Gondot would have been very dangerous.
In the time that Angmar was created king of Gondor was Romendacil II.
here is a quote from lotr, appendix A about the time of Romendacil II:

"Minalcar therefore in 1248 led out a great force, and between Rhovanion and the Inland Sea he defeated a large army of the Easterlings and destroyed all their camps and settlements east of the Sea. He then took the name of Rómendacil.
On his return Rómendacil fortified the west shore of Anduin as far as the inflow of the Limlight, and forbade any stranger to pass down the River beyond the Emyn Muil. He it was that built the pillars of the Argonath at the entrance to Nen Hithoel. But since he needed men, and desired to strengthen the bond between Gondor and the Northmen, he took many of them into his service and gave to some high rank in his armies."

please read the passage "fortified the west shore of Anduin as far as the inflow of the Limlight"
firstly, Romendacil II defeated the Easterlings, so Gondor DID NOT HAVE ANY ENEMIES LEFT IN THE SOUTH OR EAST AT THE TIME.
secondly, he FORTIFIED THE ANDUIN AND THE LIMLIGHT, so the exact way you give as a possible route is IMPOSSIBLE.

and I think you have to take a better look at the UT as well, because there the fact that in the time of Romendacil Gondor had no more trouble in the East is clearly presented.
also, considering the fact many Northmen were defending Gondor made it even stronger.
so I think you should rethink your position greatly.

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I have read the topic and have to agree with Mouth. Gondor would not have been an intense threat as it had too many troubles of its own.


I will not give the actual quotes but instead some page referances to you The Might, as clearly you need them:


Unfinished Tales


Page 374 - Gondor against the wainriders, The wainriders re-took much of the land east of what Gondor had claimed.


Page 378-382 - Disaster for gondor as Wainriders and men of Khand succeed in breaking Gondors army and forcing them all the way back to central Ithilien. The waintriders were very close to utterly defeating Gondor but thanks to Earnil they were forced to retreat.


It took Gondor long to recover from these attacks and there men were low. At one point the Wainriders were siging that Gondor was pretty much destroyed yet becuase of the Victory in the south Earnil was able to force the Wainriders back.


Now in these times of need, when Gondors borders are shrinking and they are recovering from new wave after wave of attack from the East and South I hardly think they could muster a force great enough to destroy the WK. And as for gondors ships coming to the west of this suggested place of Mouths, they could have done no such thing, they were too pushed.


As to your second point about west Anguin being defended, it says in these pages that Gondor had to retreat beyond Anduin into central Ithilien, therefore there would be scarecely any forces on Anduin as they had either been killed in the assualt or they had retreated.


So, i suggest you read through these pages and see for yourself that what mouth is saying is true.



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Glorfindel, you remain hasty as always.
I don't need a history lesson about the time of Earnil, or any other time in Gondor's history.
Angmar wa founded around 1300 TA.
if you read appendix A of lotr you will find that in 1300 TA king of Gondor was Romendacil.
and as we speak of the time Angmar was founded WE ONLY SPEAK ABOUT THE TIME OF ROMENDACIl.
Earnil lived much time longer, and Gondor had trouble with the Easterlings much much later.
in the time of Romendacil II Gondor was very powerfull, and the Anduin was strong.

please, remember this.
ONLY THE TIME OF ROMENDACIL II that is when Angmar was created.

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If you want to be so precise about everything then Angmar was actually properly founded in 1400.


The time I speak of is all roughly about the same time as this. You have not even refered to the pages I gave as you replied far too quickly so your the 'Hasty' one my friend.



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I don't need to refer to those pages as they clearly don't describe the time Angmar was founded, that of Romendacil.
as for the year 1400 that you give, please, again, look in the Appendix B of lotr:
c. 1300: Evil things begin to multiply again. Orcs increase in the Misty Mountains and attack the Dwarves. The Nazgûl reappear. The chief of these comes north to Angmar. The Periannath migrate westward; many settle at Bree.
In 1400, 1409 to be precise Angmar had long been founded as the Witchking already invaded Arnor.
So the situation we have in our discussion, as the time in which Angmar could have been created between the Isen and the Greyflood is the year 1300, when Romendacil was king in Gondor.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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No the WK was sent north from Dol guldur in 1350, therefore i can seee that both The Might and Glorfindel are correct. The might as he guessed the right century, Glorfindel becuase it would take a while to reach and establish Angmar.

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jesus...wrong wrong wrong
read my posts before saying that:

APPENDIX B; LORD OF THE RINGS :
c. 1300 Evil things begin to multiply again. Orcs increase in the Misty Mountains and attack the Dwarves. The Nazgûl reappear. The chief of these comes north to Angmar. The Periannath migrate westward; many settle at Bree.
1356 King Argeleb I slain in battle with Rhudaur. About this time the Stoors leave the Angle, and some return to Wilderland.
1409 The Witch-king of Angmar invades Arnor. King Arvaleg I slain. Fornost and Tyrn Gorthad are defended. The Tower of Amon Sûl destroyed.
Now if you can read...I think you will realise when Angmar was created.




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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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I think you will find that that is quite a rough estimation.


According to 'The Atlas of Tolkiens Middle-earth' Angmar was sent north in 1350.



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I don't care about the atlas.
for me the data in lotr is the correct one.
maybe one could discuss about how correct data in the Sil or the Ut or Home is.
but works such as lotr simply are not to be discussed.
from now on look in the appendix and not in the atlas.

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The atlas is a great book and vertually completely accurate. The auther would not have written 1350 if they did not have evidence to support it.

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listen...this is the fact:
Tolkien says that the witchking went to Angmar and created his kingdom there
it was small, so one might assume that it was maybe bigger in 1350.
but in our discussion we are not talking about the completion (as in the year when Angmar was complete) we are talking about the creation of Angmar which was in 1300.

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Well that is where we are getting confused The Might.


Anyway we are getting a bit off topic. Back to the places of positioning...



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 15, 2006
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ok...anyway, I still maintain my opinion that creating Angmar where you proposed in the time of Romendacil II was impossible as Gondor was far too strong.
so, as I said, no point to even try.
and also, the witchking founded Angmar there because it was in his master's plan.
the south kingdom could be attacked from the south or east.
but the north kingdom kept strong.
so the plan was indeed to create a place from which the north kingdom could be attacked being safe away from Gondor.
and the north of the Misty Mountains was the best choice.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: May 16, 2006
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I would add that at the time of Romendacil ll that the only reason Gondor had a short breathing space was from recovering from an attack. They were recovering not at full strength.


I will wait to see if anyone else gives there opinion on the matter.



-- Edited by The One at 13:16, 2006-05-16

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 16, 2006
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omg...
recovering from an attack?
they made the attack.
they did not defend under Romendacil.
THEY ATTACKED
they destroyed all the settlements of the Easterlings and drove them far back inot the East.
and I don't know what you mean by recovering.
actually in Romendacil's time Gondor had not had any problems with the Easterlings for 800 years, since the time of Romendacil I.
Between Romendacil I and Romendacil II all the kings of Gondor conquered new lands in the east or south, thus fortfying their kingdom.
the only problems started after Romendacil II, the kin-strife for example, but that has nothing to do with this discussion as we are talking about the time of the creation of Angmar, c. 1300 TA.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: May 16, 2006
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Whether they attacked or defended you still lose alot of forces. So they were still recovering from force-loss after they attacked. I am however dying for someone elses view on the matter as well.

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