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Topic: Interracial marriages

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Haldir of Lorien - Rank 6
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Posts: 812
Date: Aug 6, 2013
Interracial marriages

I only just realized that not one of the times where an elf married/loved a human was the elf a male and the human a female. Can anyone think of a time when this happened?



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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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Posts: 383
Date: Aug 6, 2013
I hope I got it right - you seem to be saying that a he-elf never loved a she-mortal? What about Aegnor and Andreth?

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Lórellinë

Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Posts: 2960
Date: Aug 7, 2013

Lorelline & Laurelin,

It seems this discussion or "question" is a deeper one ... because their is no question that there was attraction of elvish males to females of mannish descent.
Lorelline is right on in the story of Aegnor and Andreth.  They did love each other but the relationship was never consummated.

Aegnor was the elder brother of Galadriel and the younger brother of Finrod Felagund and Angrod. This is important because Aegnor and Angrod were both killed defending the highlands of Dorthonion against Morgoth in the Dagor Bragollach by the flames from Thangorodrim.
It was partially Aegnor's death that brought about the memorable conversation titled Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth was a discussion between two characters, Finrod Felagund, an Elven King, and Andreth, a mortal woman and deals with the metaphysical differences between Elves and Men and the imbalances between their fates. The conclusions they come to concern the role of Men beyond Arda. Towards the end it also brings in Andreth's love for Aegnor and his reasons for refusing to return it, explained tenderly by Finrod, his elder brother which is revealed as the prompting for the debate in the first place. A strong friendship was kindled between Andreth who in her grief reached out to Finrod Felagund (now king) and created this discussion about relationships between Men and Elves. (J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), Morgoth's Ring, "Part Four. Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth")

Thank you to The Tolkien Gateway: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Athrabeth_Finrod_ah_Andreth



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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit
Called or uncalled, God is present

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 383
Date: Aug 7, 2013
Just to clarify, the conversation between Andreth and Finrod happens before Dagor Bragollach, and Aegnor is still alive; but Finrod has a foreknowledge about his brother's fate, he tells Andreth that she will outlive Aegnor. Finrod also explains why Aegnor did not marry her. One reason is that Eldar do not wed or have children at the time of war. Interestingly the time was relatively quiet then but the Elves felt it would not last much longer. But in two other cases, Luthien's and Idril's, the marriage still occurs and the time is not any quieter. Seems the male person is to have the final say. Clearly neither Beren nor Tuor cared much whether there was a war or no war. Their time was running fast or at least they thought so. And the Elven ladies agreed to marry and to have children.
The other reason for Aegnor not to marry Andreth was that when she would have grown old, she would have suffered immensely because she would not have been able to keep up with Aegnor. He would not have left her, but would have pitied her "in every hour". And he "would not have [her] so shamed". So he chose to live with the memory of her young and beautiful.
Strictly as a matter of opinion, estel has failed Aegnor in this matter.

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Lórellinë

Haldir of Lorien - Rank 6
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Posts: 812
Date: Aug 7, 2013

Loreline and Bear,

Thank you for pointing out Aegnor and Andreth. Is this story in the Sil? I don't remember it.

As far as what Loreline points out:

The other reason for Aegnor not to marry Andreth was that when she would have grown old, she would have suffered immensely because she would not have been able to keep up with Aegnor. He would not have left her, but would have pitied her "in every hour". And he "would not have [her] so shamed". So he chose to live with the memory of her young and beautiful.

My question to this would be, why wasn't this as much of a concern for Idril and Tuor, Beren and Luthien and Aragorn and Arwen? Were the lady elves less shallow? Or was Aegnor more noble? (I know where my thoughts are on this!)

And if elves did not wed in time of war, was this a stipulation that only the male elves followed? Because as Loreline points out, the lady elves all married in perilous times.

 



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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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Posts: 383
Date: Aug 8, 2013
Laurelin,
The story appears in Morgoth's Ring, and is titled Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. In fact, Aegnor does not appear shallow or anything. It is mainly for Andreth's sake and not his own that he does not marry her. He suffers as much as she does and remains faithful to her. Finrod says that Aegnor will never marry anyone else and will not want ever to return from Mandos after his death (this is interesting since he is under Mandos's curse anyway; perhaps it is his unwillingness to return that matters).
True - Elven ladies had to face just the same problems as Aegnor. And those problems in their cases miraculously went away. In the end, both those couples became of the same kind: mortal in the case of Beren and Luthien and Firstborn in the case of Idril and Tuor. That's why I think it is a matter of estel.

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Lórellinë

 
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