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Topic: The man that needed to create Orcs

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Hobbit from Hobbiton - Rank 4
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Posts: 217
Date: Sep 19, 2009
The man that needed to create Orcs

Hey ho

JRR...invented his version of orcs.

The species beyond redemption...in the shape of the children of ERU but mockeries.

Evil & Filth

This may sound avvfull but JRR may have been responsible for the death of men...as doing his duty to his country.

VVas the creation and development of his imaginary race of orcs...a race that you can slaughter vvithout remorse...driven by the guilt of vvar?

JRR did not kill any orcs.........or did he ?



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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Posts: 2960
Date: Sep 19, 2009
Filli,
I would like to answer question with a question.

"Was the creation and development of his imaginary race of orcs...a
race that you can slaughter without remorse...driven by the guilt of
war? J.R.R.did not kill any orcs...or did he?"
(Tolkien Forums > J.R.R. Tolkien himself forum > The man that needed to create Orcs > Filli > September 19th, 2009)
My question...
"Should the Jews have killed the Nazi's?"

It is pretty hard to write a fantasy about good and evil without depicting good or evil.
I suppose Tolkien could have created evil carrots or eggplants instead of orcs.  But I don't think it would quite fly.  Maybe ultimate good could be the watering hose and a garden rake.  But somehow that doesn't seem to fly either.
Elves and orcs seem to be good choices for the ultimate good and evil.  Especially if what your writing is "fantasy!"
I'm surprised at implying Tolkien created anything out of guilt...I think you are way off base old buddy.  This is a saga with an underlining tradition where Valhalla (heaven) is battle and feasting to die and then be able to battle and feast, battle and feast, battle and feast, FOREVER.
Not likely to have created orcs out of guilt...Tolkien is one of the good guys all around...try the guilt and remorse thing with Edgar Allen Poe.


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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit
Called or uncalled, God is present

Hobbit from Hobbiton - Rank 4
Status: Offline
Posts: 217
Date: Sep 19, 2009
Hey bear

I vvas using orcs as a rational to de-humanising the enemy.

I can't even begin to concieve hovv men can kill men.

I live an easier life.

My point vvas , that J.R.R. found himself in situation that vvas deadly.
To pull the trigger at an encrouching svvarm, may have been easier if that mass vvasn't human.

I mean no slur on the man.



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Thorin Oakenshield - Rank 6
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Date: Sep 19, 2009
There is a quote in one of Tolkien's letters which states that Tolkien did not perceive the Orcs as irredeemably bad. Perhaps someone can dig it up?

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Loremaster Elf of Mirkwood - Rank 4
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Date: Sep 20, 2009

Tolkien wrote in his Letters, this quote from one dated September 1954 written to a Mr
Hastings that: "They (orcs) would be Morgoth's greatest Sins abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going to far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making-necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs become part of the World, which is God's an ultimately good.)"

Is this the one you were thinking of Bilbo Baggins? The index lists other references but the pages don't correspond.

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Thorin Oakenshield - Rank 6
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Date: Sep 26, 2009
Thats the one Anorlas! Tolkien saw the Orcs as the real degradation of the Children of Iluvatar. Base-beings, or however the phrase goes. Capable of great evil, a savage people bereft of salvation. But still part of the world, the Creation of Iluvatar, and therefore ultimately fulfilling the 'Grand Purpose'.

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Soldier of Beleriand - Rank 3
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Date: Sep 29, 2009
It's an interesting question - did Tolkien create them to be irredeemably evil in order to simplify the moral issues of war? I really don't know! There are very few instances of war (if any) where we can say for certain that one side was "right" morally and the other side was purely evil and wrong, although the political players on each side certainly think that about their opponents.

Despite Tolkien's past and his horrifying experiences in World War I, I viewed Orcs as more of a literary device - they represent a necessary duality and ying/yang relationship with the rest of Middle Earth. Middle Earth needed a source of conflict and rather than dilly-dallying around with complex moral issues, Tolkien decided to focus on the story he had to tell. He dabbles in these issues, such as when he discusses the fallen Easterling soldier and asks if he was really evil at heart. He certainly may have (and probably was) influenced by his own experiences at war, but did he create them out of guilt? I'm on the fence about that one.

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Hobbit from Hobbiton - Rank 4
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Posts: 217
Date: Sep 29, 2009
vvhen I fight a boxing match

My opponent is just an obstical.

I vvill knock him dovvn. He is just meat.

If he cuts...I vvill vvork on it, to open it up.

If I hurt him, I vvill press that advantage until he falls dovvn.

He feels the same about me.

VVe are both de-humanised, for each other and the baying crovvd.

At the end vve embrace.....each other and our ovvn humanity.

I've never been to vvar though

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Rohirrim of Edoras - Rank 4
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Date: Sep 30, 2009
Fight's I've been in. I've never pulled a gun on anyone. I can't imagine the thought or fright that goes into it. I guess fundamentally, do you, Filli, feel the need to get into the ring and beat the holy be-jesus out of someone? Is there a need deep with in to express whatever went wrong in your life through your fists? Do you de-humanize the other man in the ring with you so that you don't feel like your pounding on a man with the same love, passion and disappointments as yourself? My husband was a boxer when he was younger and we've had some interesting conversations about his very different views of people and G_d.

I think Tolkien created orcs because they worked with his story and his imagination. That's just my take. He had a good guy side and in order for him to be good he needed a bad guy side.

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Hobbit from Hobbiton - Rank 4
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Date: Oct 1, 2009
Yeah

I gotta fight.....don't knovv vvhy......I don't like hurting people.......outside the ring, I'm a softey

Bear vvould have a reason  vvhy........but it is fun.....I AM ALIVE !

I AM HERE



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Soldier of Beleriand - Rank 3
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Date: Oct 1, 2009
I have a question about why.

Why do you type "w" as two vs?

Like vv

VVhy?

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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Date: Oct 1, 2009
Whoa!  A reason for boxing...?
Not being a boxer (except for a few bouts in the military) I have no deep and profound psychological insights about the sport of boxing.
However I can give you an insight to our amazing Filli and the Ring
(no not the ONE Ring...the boxing ring)
"Bear would have a reason why...but it is fun...I AM ALIVE ! I AM HERE!"
I have no reason...but Filli does...in days and months filled numbers and other folks expectations...a system eats away at how we feel...that is right FEEL.
Boxing is more than a beating. (received or given) It is a challenge of speed,dexterity, mastery over pain, and the skill to land a punch on a bobbing and weaving target that can inflict enough force that your energy is so used up you can fall down. (notice the can-can inflict & fall down) And MOST IMPORTANT puts in motion the rush of adrenaline and dopamine,  endorphins and enkephlins that make one aware that THEY EXIST and THEY FEEL...hence the claim..."it is fun...I AM ALIVE!...I AM HERE!"

This is not the rush of kill or be killed...I know that scenario intimately...from a distance in an air strike...to so close that you feel the heart slow and stop while he pumps his life's fluid over your hands and arms...
There is a transformation that occurs inside oneself that lasts a lifetime...a spiritual transformation...where those you kill live forever inside your dreams and steal what you feel...and creates a window where you feel the events of your life so intensely that your life is a daily miracle that is feeling filled...or a window where you feel nothing...no matter how intimate it is...


So as much a Filli may hate to hear it...the joy he experiences in boxing...is normal, healthy, and very good for his psychological and emotional health...may be a little rough on the face once in awhile...

How this relates to "the man that needed to create Orcs" is simple.  We can create our own nightmares.  Life experience can create nightmares for us.  And as much fun as dodging the fist or the bullet is it can be a palate where we highlight the bad to show the good...not just Tolkien...but Everyman...


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Rohirrim of Edoras - Rank 4
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Posts: 395
Date: Oct 2, 2009
His W key is stuck. Someone suggested he use two v's instead. I thought it was pretty darn smart myself. There is the resourcefullness again.

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Hobbit from Hobbiton - Rank 4
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Posts: 217
Date: Oct 2, 2009
I also like the taste of leather

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: Oct 3, 2009
The peoples in Middle-earth, with a few exceptions, are very clear-cut. There is a good side and a bad side.

The Orcs represent the very worst of humanity. And are also morally objectional as beings in themselves, as direct mockeries of the Children of Iluvatar (but as someone said above, ultimately good, as they were permitted to be and were permitted to be 'made' in the beginning).

The good guys truly are good, for the most part. Elves represent the very best aspects of humanity. The good men do as well, except at times when they may fall under the sway of an evil power (such as the Downfall of Numenor), however I believe the Fall of Man only happens twice in the recorded history. Once soon after they first came about and then again with Numenor.

Less can be said for ourselves. In our history there have been very few rules in war. In medieval times even the civilised like the English would use underhand tactics to achieve their aims. Poison arrows, for example. We don't see the good guys in Middle-earth using poison on arrows as its considered morally objectionable, but we have done it ourselves.

To sum up - Tolkien needed something savage and evil to contrast with the good folk he had created. There is rarely any middle ground.

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