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Topic: Creation of the Orcs

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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Date: Oct 29, 2006
Creation of the Orcs

I know its a common question, but I am interested in what the loremasters of this site have to say on the subject. How were the orcs created; from Elves, from Men, or some other alternative.

The Silmarillion and LoTR support the idea that Elves are the source of orcish origin. HoME would suggest that Tolkien's final thoughts on the matter were that Men were the source. The entire topic seems to be centered around the nature of the spirit of Orcs and whether they are to follow the fate of Elves or Men. I am interested in all opinions about this subject.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Oct 29, 2006
I think you will find the thread "Elves or Men" very interesting, as it deals with the same question.
So in order to not create a second, almost identical thread, I suggest reading the opinions in the other thread, and perhaps continuing the discussion there.

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Black Numenorean - Rank 3
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Date: Oct 29, 2006
Can you put a link to that please.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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I intended to do that in my last post but I forgot:
MEN OR ELVES ?
Enjoy.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: Oct 30, 2006
Yes thats an interesting thread. Discusses all the possibilities from the likely (like Orcs being Elves) to lessar theories, like Orcs being Maiar.

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Black Numenorean - Rank 3
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Date: Oct 30, 2006
I never had that thought before that certain orcs could be corrupted maiar.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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read and wonder

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Valar
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Date: Aug 3, 2007
jammi567 wrote:

I never had that thought before that certain orcs could be corrupted maiar.




 Neither have i and will not give more time for that theory. yawn



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Well...still this could explain some things, for example the presence of greater, out of the ordinary Orcs like the Great Goblin. Maybe he is a Maia traped in this Orc body, who knows?

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Valar
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Date: Aug 3, 2007
Maybe that Great Goblin (i assume from Hobbit) was tremendous just because he was a leader who did not do anything else than order others around from his seat. Tremendous like Bombur was in later days when he was too fat to move.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: Aug 4, 2007
I think there were many Great Orcs like Gothmog for instance and many great ones that are not named like the one killed in Moria byAragorn. Not to mention Azog who killed Thror and Bolg in the Battle of five armies. I am not sure this means they are inhabited by Maiar spirits though. Otherwise I do not think they could have been killed so easily like most were.

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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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Date: Dec 4, 2008
Gothmog may not be an orc, many believe him to be a Black Numenorean.  In fact i think in the book it says that no orc or brigand commanded the assault on the city. Now weather its talking about him or the Witch-King. Personaly I think he's a Black Numenorean.

Sorry for being off topic.

-- Edited by gumballthechewy at 19:27, 2008-12-04

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Thorin Oakenshield - Rank 6
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gumballthechewy wrote:
Gothmog may not be an orc, many believe him to be a Black Numenorean.  In fact i think in the book it says that no orc or brigand commanded the assault on the city. Now weather its talking about him or the Witch-King. Personaly I think he's a Black Numenorean.

Sorry for being off topic.

I remember that passage too, and I also thought it was refering to the Witch King. But then again it might have been refering to that 'captain of Morgul' guy (I think he was called). Can anyone clarify?



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Dec 6, 2008
No, the idea is that probably both Gothmog, the guy leading the army at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, and Mouth of Sauron were Black Numenoreans.

We know for sure Mouth of Sauron as one, and many people believe that because of certain similarities also Gothmog was a Black Numenorean. Actually, that makes a lot more sense than him being an Orc.

Btw, there is a thread here somewhere exactly on that topic - Gothmog's race.

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