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Topic: The relms of Beleriand

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Black Numenorean - Rank 3
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Posts: 87
Date: Oct 13, 2006
The relms of Beleriand

Why were they all built in the north. Obviously, it's so they can fight Morgoth, but Thingol says somewhere that they weren't allowed to build south of his relm. why? what secrets was he   keeping down there?

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: Oct 13, 2006

That is a very interesting question.


My answer would be that Thingol did not want to be the focal frontpoint of Morgoth's desire. If his real was northmost of all the others then that would mean goodbye to Doriath, the Strongest realm of all beleriand.


Also becuase Thingol established Beleriand and had no thought for Morgoth at the time (becuase Morgoth was chained in Valinor) whereas the others came over specifically to attack Morgoth. This would explain why Thingol paid such little heed to Morgoth in terms of providing forces etc. Instead he attacks Dwarves and makes enemies of the Sons of Feanor.


You think they would realise that it is completely non-profitable to fight amoung themselves - they MUST defeat Morgoth as a united front (but we know they couldn't becuase Morgoth was an undefeatable enemy to the Peoples of Beleriand).



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Black Numenorean - Rank 3
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Date: Oct 13, 2006
but you have to admit that they area the noldor were given was very small for aboy 10-12 princes, each wanting their own share. I know some of them shared relms, but still.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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I agree. But remember, King Thingol was King of Beleriand, not just Doriath. He is the most important Elf in the world (more important than even Finwe, high king of the Noldor).
The only Elf who is more important (in hierarchy not greatness) is Ingwe - the High King of all Elves ever.



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Black Numenorean - Rank 3
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Date: Oct 13, 2006
but why not allow the 'inferior' peoples (the noldor and men) spread out a bit, instead of cramped up in one place.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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To use them as defence against Morgoth. That is what I would do. Any newcomers who want to stay I would limit them to the forefront, between me and the enemy.

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Black Numenorean - Rank 3
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Date: Oct 14, 2006
i guess it makes sense.

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Soldier of the East - Rank 4
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Date: Oct 14, 2006

I had wondered about this but I never thought about it that way before. It does make sense. Thanks for that Glorfindel1235.


G-G/G.



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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Glad to have been able to enlighten.

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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Date: Oct 19, 2006
RE: The realms of Beleriand

Glorfindel gives us an excellent point. I tend to agree with him on Thingol not wanting to be the focal point of Morgoth's might.

If you look at the map of Beleriand in the Silmarillion, you will see that the Noldor claimed most of Beleriand, basically everything that wasn't Doriath. And it's obvious that the sons of Feanor did not hold Thingol in high regard, considering him a king in name alone.


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Black Numenorean - Rank 3
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Date: Oct 19, 2006
RE: The relms of Beleriand

Yep. they made themselves a crash barrior (with later help from men), so Thingol wouldn't have to worry about anything. The *beeep*. 

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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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The Noldor were at war against Morgoth and I am pretty certain that Thingol was aware of the danger as well, so even though the kinslaying was insulting to Thingol and the Noldorin Princes did not have much respect for him, the common threat of Morgoth made it easy for Thingol to "allow" the Noldor to claim the various regions in the north of Beleriand.


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Elf of Beleriand - Rank 2
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Date: Jan 3, 2007
I agree that it was wise for Thingol to only allow the princes of the Noldor to the North.  Strategically, it just makes sense.  Here is another theory, I have no evidence of any kind to back this up, but as from what I have gathered from my reading, the forest in the south of Beleriand, which I am unable to come up with the name at this time, being at work, something like Taur-na- something.  I don't seem to recall any stories coming from there.  So my theory is that that forest had some kind of magical/mystical force that either scared people from going there or out of respect maybe of some kind of religous type of place.  If i recall the realm of Nargothrond was pretty close southwards as Doriath, maybe even a bit south. 

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Taur-im-Duinath indeed...
We are told it was dark and also dangerous, a lot like Fangorn Forest in the Third Age, and we are also told that except a few Dark Elves nobody went there.
So my opinion is that it was inhabitey by Ents. Men, Dwarves or Orcs would not enter the forest out of fear for the trees, so only a few Ents might have been wondering about in that area.

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Elf of Beleriand - Rank 2
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Date: Jan 3, 2007
Oh excellent, I have not thought of that, but that would make a lot of sense.  Ents would be a pretty logical reason.  That would also bring up a pretty good discussion if it has not already been discussed.  Could that of been where all the ent chicks, I forget their name went and then died when Beleriand sunk?  And that is why Treebeard and the rest could not find them.  Well that opened up a nice new path in my head, thanks.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Indeed this is the Vast southern forests of Middle-eaarth that Treebeard refers to when he says to Merry and Pippin something like 'In my youth I could walk all day and hear no sound but my own voice'.


Thanks to the War of Wrath, when much of Beleriand fell under water, and centuries of War and desolation only in Fangorn remains of the vast forests. And the Old forest as well.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Jan 3, 2007
nope, this is not the case, and please Turgolfin don't follow this path

Taur-im-Duinath was the forest between the rivers Gelion and Sirion, and it had no link to any other forest of Middle-earth

Treebeard never lived in Beleriand in the first place
He was, together with Fladrif and Finglas, one of the first three Ents to be sent by Yavanna to inhabit the large forest existing in Middle-earth. In those times it was much larger, it stretched all the way to Arnor and the area where the Shire was afterwards founded and to Eryn Vorn and the shores of the sea

this large forest however was not linked to Taur-im-Duinath

the reason for the destruction of this large forest were however not wars or desolation, but the Numenoreans
in the UT, Tale of Aldarion and Erendis it is explained that the Numenoreans were responsible for cutting down vast amounts of trees in order to build ships
this is why the only rememnants where Chetwood, the Old Forest, and Fangorn, and perhaps small areas not named by Tolkien

and mos, to the list you have given I would add one other forest - Mirkwood (the largest remaining forest)

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Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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Date: Jan 4, 2007
RE: The realms of Beleriand

It is suggested, from his chant, that Treebeard walked in lands West of Ered Luin; and he adds (specific geography aside here) that the forest '... from here to the Mountains of Lune' was just the 'East End'.


Regarding the Entwives: it is noted that the Ent-wives crossed the 'Great River' and made new gardens, and were seen more seldom; and Treebeard explains: we crossed the Anduin and came to their land, but found a desert, and could not find them.


Galin


 


 



-- Edited by Galin at 16:06, 2007-01-04

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