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Topic: No! [extended]

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Elf of Beleriand - Rank 2
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Date: Sep 18, 2006
No! [extended]

Some thoughts about consistency: The Silmarillion is not lore but a retold echo of lore [with occasional exceptions -- quotes and such].


It cannot be stated that it is genuine lore without underestimating the original material, whether merely existent as a concept or not. The book might be closer to the lore core at greater costs in time, energy and s p a c e, ah the space...



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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you're confusing me
why should it not be considered lore, just as any other of the books...it is after all a book based on the knowledge gathered by the Elves during the First Age...so I'd say it is Lore
perhaps an echo of lore only in the respect that much information had been taken from songs or tales such as the Aldudenie, that were then retold in the Silmarillion
still, why should it not be considered lore just as the original versions of the story?
I don't think considering the Sil lore underestimates the original material in any way, the original material just served as a source of information for the Sil

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Elf of Beleriand - Rank 2
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Date: Sep 20, 2006
You cannot, however, claim that Aldudenie could not have been written and added to the compendium. In t h a t respect what we have is lore repercussion, nothing more [except for the quotes].

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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of course that could have been done, but Tolkien simply didn't do that
isn't a part of LOTR the same?
the appendices and the tale of the years, are just as well only lore repercussions, but I don't think that this underestimates the scrolls of Gondor in any way.


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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Gollum - I would counter that the Silmarillion is not a retold echo of lore, but rather an unfinished piece of work that was compiled and edited by Chris Tolkien, whom I think had less artistic ability, but more business sense than his father.

As such, I dont think it is fair to critique the Silmarillion as one might do with the Hobbit or the LoTR series.

note: For all Chris Tolkien fans, it is not my intention to be malicious; I am just stating my opinion of his ability.

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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How do you know he had less ability? In The Silmarillion it does not say which parts were edited ansd which were not so how can you judge Chris Tolkien's ability?

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My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....
Soldier of the East - Rank 4
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I agree with Mouth of Sauron. I have thought that for a long time. There is nothing you can say about Christopher when you don't know what he wrote.

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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Hmmmmm. Let's start the answer with, as stated in my previous post, it's my opinion, to which I am entitled.

That was the easy unsupported answer. For the more drawn out version, I would offer speculation based on what is known. Within the body of Tolkiens letters and the Unfinished Tales we find references to what Tolkien himself thought of the Silmarillion and some of its tales. I cannot say that I accept the notion that Tolkien did not have the time in his life to finish his work, since it appears that he simply was not satisfied with it and shelved the project. My comment on his ability is based on the way in which the works were posthumously published. If he had his father's ability he could have simply completed the task in a more cohesive manner. Again this is just my opinion when comparing the Silmarillion, which I truly enjoy, to the Hobbit and LoTR series.

The publishing of UT just shows us that he didnt really have the intention of completing or adding significantly the work and I would further suggest that much of what CT published was not in an effort to build upon his father's work.


Not that my opinion of CT is the topic of this thread, but rather the consistency of the Silmarillion and I offered the fact that it was not entirely desired by JRR Tolkien that it should be published its form at his death which would give an insight into why Gollum does not perceive it as lore.

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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I've just noticed who unimportant such a topic would have seemed in the eyes of the Master, considering the things written in the foreword to the Hobbit:

"It is, I suppose, a tribute to the curious effect that a story has...that so many should clamour for sheer "information," or "lore." - J.R.R. Tolkien

I don't think it is so important to be able to exactly say what kind of lore a book is, or if it is lore at all...

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Elf of Beleriand - Rank 2
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Date: Oct 3, 2006
The Ainulindalë is the piece wherein Tolkien made most effort to achieve the epic tone of elven bards. In comparison to the tales, it is closer to the quintessence of lore.

If we merely follow non-reason in discerning genres, we might classify Tolkien's love letters as lore using the name of the author as an argument. I disapprove of defending fiction from unbiased analysis.

Regarding the tone, in retrospect: Do you remember my previous thread[s] questioning the worth and categorization of LotR and related pieces? Tolkien was an average poet, both in terms of quantity and quality. What would genuine elvish literature be like? I think of British classics, like Byron or Tennyson or Keats or Milton, of course not indigeniously Earthly but deprived of unrestrained rampant romanticistic cheesines. I picture it somewhat somber, in between modern black metal lyrics and Illiad, all majestically framed into flawless meter.

What I mean to say is, I suppose, we do not grasp the elven lore, not because we are not J. R. R. T. but because we are not inhuman.

[With honourable exceptions. But these are the more distant form E lore the more extreme they are. Yes I permit exceptions to the previous statement also, but I constantly think of Nietzsche. He wrote poems, too.]

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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I hope you will not take this as an offence Elvish Avantguard, but although I am from the UK I do find your English sometimes a bit hard to follow - NOT becuase it is incorrect but becuase of the use of long words in an extreme syncronistic fasion which therefore decreases my capabilities of succefully following such dialect.


This is a complemen to you I suppose as you have learnt English better than even English people, but would it be possible to try and slightly curb the longer words and Tolkien - like fassion dialect?



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My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....
Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Date: Oct 5, 2006
As I have mentioned in other threads, I find Ainulindale and Valaquenta a bit more difficult to read for the first time. Perhaps it is that quality which Gollum refers to as epic tone of the Elven bards.

Because it is fantasy literature which I read for enjoyment more than anything else, I am not qualified to compare Tolkien to Byron, Keats, or Milton, except aesthetically, which is highly subjective and thus not worth doing. And I have not read Tennyson.

I am intrigued at the suggestion that Elvish lit would be comparable to a black metal / Illiad hybrid in flawless meter. I had actually never considered such a creation. I will agree with your conclusion that we lack the ability to think as the Elves due to our limitations.


MoS - Might I suggest the OXFORD ENGLISH DICTIONARY?



-- Edited by Celethil at 04:27, 2006-10-05

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Celethil wrote:


MoS - Might I suggest the OXFORD ENGLISH DICTIONARY?






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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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That was intended in good humour (note the British -our), not malice or spite.

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Elf of Beleriand - Rank 2
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Date: Oct 24, 2006

I have a proposition, inspired by the reiterating comments of other members. If there is a post of mine that puzzled you especially, feel free to quote it and I will reformulate the thought[s].


No, not vanity but curiosity and experimental interest. Once again: Not vanity.



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Elf of Beleriand - Rank 2
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I very much enjoy the Silmarillion and yes I can see how some would find it harder to read than some of the other books.  I have always taken the information from the book as part of the lore of the whole.  Yes there are many holes and questions, but it seems the book would have to be thousands of pages long in order to tell all the tales for the length of time the book covers.  I think that the reason why Tolkien did not want to publish it was because he felt it was incomplete and would of if he could, have made the book thousands of pages long.  So for my part, I take the Silmarillion as part of the whole lore, whether it be correct or not.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Same here Turgolfin. Many refuse to class it as sturdy lore and say that it is speculation but I don't see why just becuase it had to be brought into a publishable form by Christopher Tolkien.

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Tom Bombadil
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For a retold Echo, the Sil has definitely a lot of power. When I was reading it for the first time, I got Goosebumps. It inspired me so much, that within reading 30 pages of it, I wrote a poem about what I had read. It's a jumble to be sure, seeing I was brandnew to Tolkien and his writings, but the words had a power, I for myself, could not deny.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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I see Avantgaurds point however. As The Silmarillion is an ACCOUNT of the Eldar days by the Eldar themselves, rather than LOTR for example which is told by Tolkien himself it cannot be considered fool-proof. And lets not forget that the Sil can be found in HOME which also contains many old idears.

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My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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mos, that's incorrect
As stated in the Prologue of LotR, some portions of The Thain's Book (a copy of the Red Book of Westmarch) are available to modern readers. The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings are derived from the original Red Book. The Appendices found at the end of The Lord of the Rings contain material that was added to The Thain's Book in Minas Tirith, such as The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. The Silmarillion is a compiled from Bilbo's Translations from the Elvish.

So as you see, all of these books had fictional writers, Bilbo for the most part with additional writing by Frodo and Sam, and more annotations and corrections by Gondor's lore masters.

So actually, the Silmarillion is based on Bilbo's Tranlations from the Elvish, which again is based on an Elvish account of the First Age kept in Rivendell.

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Elf of Rivendell - Rank 2
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Voronwë_the_Faithful of the Hall of Fire forums has compiled an extensive analysis of exactly what parts of the published Silmarillion were written by JRRT, what was left out, what was edited, and what was written in by CJRT and Guy Kay. It is my hope that this will eventually be published as a book (he is seeking out publishers). See link, link2.

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