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Topic: Rivendell and Lothlorien

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Elf of Rivendell - Rank 2
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Posts: 53
Date: Sep 3, 2006
Rivendell and Lothlorien

I don't know if anyone asked this before but I wonder-what happened with Rivendell and Lorien after the departure of the Elves to the West?Were they deserted,ruined,or did someone stay there?thanks

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anar kaluva tielyanna!
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Sep 3, 2006
Elves remained there, but as we are told there was "no more laughter or song in Caras Galadhon", and eventually probably all Elves left into the west
Rivendell was left to the rule of Elladan and Elrohir the sons of Elrond that remained in ME, but that probably also eventually joined their family in Valinor

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Valar
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Date: Sep 5, 2006

To give a little more about Lorien, it definitely wasn't as great and beautiful as it once was.  Galadriel sustained Lorien with the power of her ring Nenya.  When the One Ring is destroyed, Nenya loses its power and as we know Galadriel departs.


Lothlorien then would then begin to fade, and as TM explains there was no more 'laughter or song.'  Also, Celeborn eventually leaves Lorien and goes to stay in Rivendell with the sons of Elrond for a while, before he finally sets sail back to the West.



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I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
Elf of Rivendell - Rank 2
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Date: Sep 11, 2006
As far as I know Rivendell was not an easily located place as it was in a valley well hidden.  I think after the Elves went West it was left deserted as any who came upon it would have thought that it was still an enchanted place and would most likely have been afraid to stay without the Elves being there.  That is my thought on this.

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So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you.
Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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The question is rather difficult to answer simply because the time frame is after the Elves departed. Since Elladan and Elrohir remained in Rivendell for some time into the Fourth Age, that makes it difficult to predict what might have become of Rivendell.

We know that Aragorn was aware of it. I can't imagine that its location would remain a closely guarded secret in times of peace during the reuniting of Arnor and Gondor. The best that I can speculate is that it remained a place of solace for the wise among men for some time, but then the doom of men would come into play and as generations passed some superstition would be invented and it would probably have been burned as a place of evil dark elvish magic.

Sorry to sound so bleak but the nature of man appears to be: If you don't understand it, destroy it.

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Valar
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Date: Sep 12, 2006

Sorry to sound so bleak but the nature of man appears to be: If you don't understand it, destroy it.~Celethil


In some instances I would agree with you, with Men it seems to be if I don't understand it I want to break it out and find out what it's made of (therefor would be destroying it).  But in cases of places they aren't aware of I think it is more likely they would just avoid it.


Let's take Lorien for example.  Lorien, for the Men of Gondor and Rohan was a place of mystery, of uncertainty, they didn't understand, so they avoided it and thought of it as some perilous place that people should not travel to.


However, with Rivendell I didn't get that same feeling from Men.  Rivendell is described as the 'Last homely house west of the Misty Mountains.'  It was a place of welcome where people come not only to seek advice, but also for food and rest.  As remarked by Boromir in the Council of Elrond. 


In the Dream Denethor knew that Imladris was the old name of Rivendell, and Elrond was the lord who was known to be a wise and welcomed Elf.  So, Boromir takes it upon himself to travel to Rivendell because the old tales say that it was a place where great advice and counsel could be given.


So, Men were able to understand Rivendell because it wasn't such a mystery to them.  They knew it was a place where they could get food, rest, seek counsel, wise advice...etc.  Where Lorien was a place that was fully of mystery, peril, and under the control of a dark Witch; therefore it should be avoided at all costs.



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I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Date: Sep 12, 2006
The question is rather difficult to answer simply because the time frame is after the Elves departed. - Celethil

I have no idea how long the Elves remained in Middle-Earth during the Fourth Age. Given the nature of Elves, I am just assuming they hung around at least 500-600 years, which by their standards is a brief amount of time. For men that is a lot of history. And in the example of superstition and ruin that I was forecasting, I was assuming another 1500 years on top of that.

2000 years is sufficient time for Men to completely twist something good into something evil.


You mentioned the fear and uncertainty that Men had of Lorien, but those same men's ancestors were most likely friends with the Elves of Hollin and Lorien. Let 2000 - 3000 years go by and look what happens.

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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of course, but this was another situation
Lorien was then much more closely guarded then before, because after the destruction of Hollin and after the creation of the rings, Lorien changed
Galadriel ruled the land using the white Ring, and making sure the borders stay safe
aslo, Men such as the Rohirrim had no knowledge about the past, and they had always avoided that area

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Im not sure that I understand your point. Could you clarify?

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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you said that Mwn forgot about Lorien in time and considered it a dangerous place, but I personally think that also had a good reason
Lorien was not a safe place anymore for all - Galadriel wanted to keep the Silvan Elves safe, so the scouts on the borders were always watchful, perhaps contibuting to the idea Men later had about Lorien

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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I do not doubt that the actions of the Elves led to Men's fears about Lothlorien. In fact, I would think that the Elves played upon the superstition of Men in order to keep them away from Lorien.

I was just saying that whatever friendship there was between Men and Elves, it faded easily due to the brief lifespan of men compounded with their tendency to "lose" history.



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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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I found Eorl really strange.
As he rode south to help Cirion he passed east of Lorien.
Galadriel tried to help him and sent clouds of mist that hid the army from the eyes of unfriendly Orcs in Mirkwood, thus making sure that Eorl still had the element of surprise.

For when at last the host drew near to Dol Guldur, Éorl turned away westward for fear of the dark shadow and cloud that flowed out from it, and then he rode on within sight of Anduin. Many of the riders turned their eyes thither, half in fear and half in hope to glimpse from afar the shining Dwimordene, the perilous land that in legends of their people was said to shine like gold in the springtime. But now it seemed shrouded in a gleaming mist; and to their dismay the mist passed over the river and flowed over the land before them.
Éorl did not halt. "Ride on!" he commanded. "There is no other way to take. After so long a road shall we be held back from battle by a river-mist?"
As they drew nearer they saw that the white mist was driving back the glooms of Dol Guldur, and soon they passed into it, riding slowly at first and warily; but under its canopy all things were lit a clear and shadowless light, while to left and right they were guarded as it were by white walls of secrecy.
"The Lady of the Golden Wood is on our side, it seems," said Borondir. --Unfinished Tales, "Cirion and Eorl"

Still, later in the story he still says he doesn't trust the Elves of Lorien, and he still fears the land.

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Soldier of Beleriand - Rank 3
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I don't know what may or may not have happened to the land that it was located on, and if it was occupied by other peoples, but its nature probably just faded from enchanted and filled with the power of the Elves to being just like every other area of Middle Earth...the more time passed, the less evidence there was that the Elves had ever been there.

An example of this is found in FOTR, when Legolas says:

But the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk, and the trees and the grass do not now remember them: Only I hear the stones lament them: deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone. They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago.

It seems the memory and doings of the Elves fades after a certain time, and the fate of things they affected returns to normal.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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I guess you are talking about...Hollin
Hollin was destroyed by the army of Sauron in II 1697. He killed the Smiths of Eregion and took the 7 and the 9, but the 3 were sent away.
And a Numenorean army managed to stop Sauron and make him retreat.

-- Edited by The Might at 19:55, 2006-10-05

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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That quote does give some insight into how the Silvan Elves viewed the remnant of the Noldor and Sindar. It also gives us a view into how close the Elves were related to the world.

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
 
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