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Topic: The Final Battle

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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Date: Aug 26, 2006
The Final Battle

I would like to know other members thoughts about the final battle. The reason for the discussion is that there seems to be a gap between the reference to the end of days in the Silmarillion and the account of the Final Battle.

I just want to see what others' views are and what side discussions come of this topic.

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Aug 27, 2006
well, it is a very fuzzy topic, as all we know about it is from uncertain sources...
of course, considering these were Tolkien's last ideas on the topic, they are to be taken seriously, but not too seriously, as there are signs that he wanted to change this concept towards the end of his life, as he started to take many elements from the Dagor Dagorath and add them to the Great Battle that ended the War of Wrath
unfortunately, as with many other topics, we will probably never know what Tolkien wanted in the end...

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: Aug 29, 2006

I will give you my account of the Final attle:


It takes place at the end of days, perhaps in the 9thAge or more.


The Ainur and Elves are now wearied with the world having inhabited it for so long. This is when Melkor, after looking down upon the kingdom of Manwe for so long, sees his chance to re-enter. In doing so he arrives on the Plains of Valinor with most of his old minions resurrected to his service.


During this ultimate Battle Sauron is slayed by Olorin, who worked endlessly in the Third Age to bring his ruin.


Also Ar-pharazon and his fleet come out of the Caves of the Forgotten and fight for either Melkor or the Valar, I cannot remember which.


Melkor duels with Turin and Eonwe, but neither manage to bring him down. Then Turin rises above the rest and duels with melkor, and deals his death blow, thus being avenged of his familes curse.


"Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In  that  day Tulkas  shall strive  with Melko,  and on  his right shall  stand  Fionwe  and  on  his  left  Turin  Turambar,  son of Hurin,  Conqueror  of  Fate,  coming  from  the  halls  of Mandos; and it shall be the  black sword  of Turin  that deals  unto Melko."


 


Turin is then counted as one of the gods:


 


"But of Men  in that  day the  prophecy speaks  not, save  of Turin only, and him it names among the Gods."






There is another way the Battle goes however. It is said that somehow Melkor contrives a quarrel between the sun and moon and all the Stars fall out of the Sky. I suggest reading further into the History of Middle-earth to gain greater understanding.


"After the triumph of the Gods, Earendel sailed still in the seas of heaven, but the Sun scorched him and the Moon hunted him in the sky . . . Then the Valar drew his white ship Wingelot over the land of Valinor, and they filled it with radiance and hallowed it, and launched it through the Door of Night. And long Earendel set sail into the starless vast, Elwing at his side, the Silmaril upon his brow, voyaging the Dark behind the world, a glimmering and fugitive star. And ever and anon he returns and shines behind the courses of the Sun and Moon above the ramparts of the Gods, brighter than all other stars, the mariner of the sky, keeping watch against Morgoth upon the confines of the world. Thus shall he sail until he sees the Last Battle fought upon the plains of Valinor.

"Thus spake the prophecy of Mandos, which he declared in Valmar at the judgement of the Gods, and the rumour of it was whispered among all the Elves of the West: when the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth shall come back through the Door out of the Timeless Night; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon, but Earendel shall come upon him as a white flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate; and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the Children of Hurin and all men be avenged.

"Thereafter shall the Silmarils be recovered out of sea and earth and air; for Earendil shall descend and yield up that flame that he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall bear the Three and yield their fire to rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth; and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the light goes out over all the world. In that light the Gods will again grow young, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin only, and him it names among the Gods."


-- Edited by Glorfindel1235 at 09:10, 2006-08-30

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Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!

Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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as shown in Glorfindel's post, much uncertainty in this topic unfortunately...
btw thank you for that account about the sun and the moon, I wasn't aware of that version until now...but I guess a person always learns something...

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Soldier of the East - Rank 4
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Glorfindel, where did you get those quotes. Was it in the HoME series.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Yes those quote are from Home.

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Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!

Soldier of the East - Rank 4
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Date: Sep 24, 2006
Do you remember which book. I'd hate to have to read all twelve to find out.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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The Shaping of Middle-earth


And I think UT contains some information.



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Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!

Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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hmm...nah, I doubt that
the UT doesn't say so much about the Final Battle

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Soldier of the East - Rank 4
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Date: Oct 1, 2006
I don't have a copy of the Unfinished tales, is it good.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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it does offer interesting new information
I personally mostly liked the 4th part with essays on Druedain, Istari and Palantiri
but the other parts were good as well, it is for example interesting to find out how Gollum actually ended up in Moria as the Fellowship entered, as it is clear he must have gotten in through the eastern gate. Also, the account on the Battles of the Fords of the isen is nice, because the battles were important in the War of the Ring but they were never mentioned much in LOTR.

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Soldier of the East - Rank 4
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Thanks TM. I'll see about geting a copy for my collection.

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Chief Maiar
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Just an add-on, i found a quote that might be connected to the renewing of the world (well, renewing was after the The Final Battle but...), so Tolkien possibly already at the time of making the Hobbit had thoughts/written down that part:Farewell, good thief," he said. "I go now to the halls of waiting to sit beside my fathers, until the world is renewed. Since I leave now all gold and silver, and go where it is of little worth, I wish to part in friendship from you, and I would take back my words and deeds at the Gate. That quote is by Thorin, in the beggining of chapter: The Return Journey in "The Hobbit".

However i have a question to ask: does Tolkien shed any light into what happens to the Dwarves after they die, and what happened to them after/before Dagor Dagorath, when the world was renewed/when the battle started and the humans etc etc etc rose from the dead?

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...But it was so that from Nienna he learned pity and patience.

Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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According to Dwarvish tradition, they are gathered by Aulë in a part of the Halls of Mandos set aside for them.
It is clearly not uncommon for them to be reincarnated (Durin did it 6 times after all), so it seems that happens much more often then in the case of the Elves

They would probably also take part in the battle, however not necessarily on the good side (it is mentioned that some Dwarves are evil and joined Melkor)
It is said that after the Dagor Dagorath they will help Aulë rebuild Arda.


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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Chief Maiar
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Whoa whoa whoa, the Durins in the "family tree" are the same? I never knew that =).

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...But it was so that from Nienna he learned pity and patience.

Orc Warrior - Rank 2
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Wow, I never knew dwarves were reincarnated, I had always thought they just went to the Hall of Mandos. Is it even possibel for a man to be reincarnated since they have the gift of Death.

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Thorin Oakenshield - Rank 6
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There are a couple of cases. Turin Turambar comes back from the dead to slay Melkor and Beren comes back from the dead with Luthian.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Men never return until the Final Battle, and Beren is really a single case
The reason why Beren came back is because he never really left, he went to the Halls of Mandos, but did not continue the journey. Luthien's song managed to impress even Mandos and so they were given a brief time in Beleriand until they finally left the world.

Indeed, Olorin all the Durins are the same person. It is stated the Dwarves would realise if a certain person had been reincarnated if it was much alike to a person that had died.
Personally, I think that not only Durin reincarnated. However, maybe in other cases the Dwarves did not realise it was the same person, since they might have lost information from the past.
Finally, it is important to keep in mind that unlike the Elves, Dwarves do not maintain memories and knowledge from previous lives, they are somehow "reset", thus the need for others to realise if they are akin to dead ancestors.

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Peoples of Beleriand - Rank 1
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Actually the Final Battle I've always thought would be a great rp especially if set in the present day. Imagine the elves returning to this reality. Very few of us would know what this portended.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Interesting idea...why not

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Peoples of Beleriand - Rank 1
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Well there was actually a big time Fantasy Author who kind of alluded to it. Mercedes Lackey, the Author of the Heralds of Valdemar series and many others. In the novel Summoned to Tourney, there were a couple of natural healers, (wiccan) in a Denny's in LA. The healers who knew what the Elves were asked their leader. "Why are you guys here? Is Sauron planning to invade L.A.?

-- Edited by Erestor at 04:46, 2007-05-01

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Peoples of Beleriand - Rank 1
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So where should I put this rp? Dagor Dagorath: Prologue is the first chapter. To make this more interesting lets play our real selves wherever we are, Europe, the US, where ever.

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Chief Maiar
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Date: May 2, 2007
Cool idea i must say! According to some sources we are in the 7th age right now...O.o

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...But it was so that from Nienna he learned pity and patience.

Tom Bombadil
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Date: May 2, 2007
I would really like to be Nienna and Lorien. Seeing that I have a healers background. I think there ought to be some valir and valar there to do damage controle. Please Erestor?

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Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!
Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow!
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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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No, I agree, playing ourselves really sounds like a great idea for a change...definitely not what you would normally expect on a RPG thread of Tolkien fansite.

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Tom Bombadil
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Date: May 2, 2007
So I will be ArwenLegolas the Healer? Well I guess I can try to embody Nienna and Lorien. As long as you grant me their level of power, wisdom and knowledge.

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Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!
Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow!
Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!

Peoples of Beleriand - Rank 1
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Date: May 3, 2007
Yes you can play anyone you want to Arwen. Yes if it is the Seventh Age we are playing the Elven version of 24...23:59...23:58...

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Can I offer you an Elven Gumdrop?
Tom Bombadil
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And I would love one of those Elven Gumdrops, I been coughing and the last time I tried one of these, they really helped. But what do you mean by 23:59 23:58 ?

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Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!
Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow!
Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!

Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Maybe it's supposed to be in the likeness of the 24 TV series with Kiefer Sutherland, where one series (24 episodes) only depict events taking place in one day...I think it's a nice idea from the producers, and I would find it nice here as well.

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Peoples of Beleriand - Rank 1
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At the beginning of ever episode of 24 they have a countdown clock, hence 23:59...23:58. Well I dont know if we can do this in 24 hours.

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Can I offer you an Elven Gumdrop?
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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So when is this RP getting underway?

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