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Topic: Who would win in a fight?

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Soldier of the East - Rank 4
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Date: Jul 26, 2006
Who would win in a fight?

Who would win in a fight, Aragorn or Borimir?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Depends on what kind of a fight. If you mean a sword fight I really can't say. The reason is that both were well skilled and the they are never compared by Tolkien, as far as I know, and there skills are not much explained. Of course for example if the fight take place in the woods, then Aragorn has an advantage as he can use stealth better, as he was used to living in the wild, and he could ambush Boromir.
But then again, you really can't say, I guess it would all depend on the conditions.
The thing is Tolkien never compared their skills, as he knew that there would never be a fight between them.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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As TM said they werenever compared. One was a lead Ranger of a lost Realm whilst another was a captain of a fairly powerful land.


Circumstances come into play. For instance if I said 'Who would win in a Battle, Merry brandybuck the Hobbit or the Lord of the Nazgul' the answer is obvious. However Merry managed to apprach the Witchking while remaining undetected, so therefore circumstances come into play.



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Valar
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The only physical comparison I know between the two is talking about Aragorn being taller but Boromir being the stronger:


Aragorn was the tallest of the Company, but Boromir, little less in height, was broader and heavier in build.~The Ring Goes South


Other than that there is no comparison that I know of between the two.  Cases could be easily made for both, and it's rather up to the reader's own opinion.  Since, we don't have direct comparisons, you just got to take what each accomplished and make an argument for them.  I'm gonna make an argument for Boromir, but I find it hard to believe that he could have beat Aragorn...


First, off Boromir was the best (warrior that is) Gondor had:


It did not seem possible to Faramir that any one in Gondor could rival Boromir, heir of Denethor, Captain of the White Tower; and of like mind was Boromir.~Appendix A: The Stewards


Even though this is only Faramir's opinion, being Boromir's brother, knowing him probably more than anyone else, because we are told they had a great bond despite their father's favoritism towards Boromir.  So, to Faramir (as well as Boromir) there is no one in Gondor that could beat him in combat, and I think we can take Faramir's opinion as being true.


So, Boromir being the best Gondor had, but Aragorn is not from Gondor (at this time at least).  So, by looking at some things he does I'm actually really quite amazed by his abilities.  This is from the Council of Elrond and Boromir talking about before he left the attack on Osgiliath:


 'But this very year, in the days of June, sudden war came upon us out of Mordor, and we were swept away.  We were outnumbered, for Mordor has allied itself with the Easterlings and the cruel Haradrim; but it was not by numbers that we were defeated.  A power was there that we have no felt before...
 'I was in the Company that held the bridge, until it was cast down behind us.  Four only were saved by swimming: my brother and mysel f and two others.  But still we fight on, holding all the west shores of Anduin; and those who shelter behind us give us praise, if ever they hear our name:...


Boromir being the High Warden of the White Tower, and the Steward's heir, his position in Gondor would sort of be like the Commander in Chief role of the President.  Being in command of the military and leading the Army.  Then his death scene that is told by Pippin, I think is even more amazing:


Then Boromir had come leaping through the trees.  He had made them fight.  He slew many of them and the rest fled.  But they had not gone far on the way back when they are attacked again, by a hundred Orcs at least, some of them very large, and they shot a rain of arrows: always at Boromir.  Boromir had blown his great horn till the woods rang, and at first the Orcs had been dismayed and had drawn back; but when no answer but the echoes came, they had attacked more fiercely than ever.  Pippin did not remember much more.  His last memory was Boromir leaning up against a tree, plucking out an arrow; then darkness fell suddenly.~The Uruk-Hai


As much as I loved Boromir's death scene in the movie, and thought it was very well done by Jackson, I think this is even more heroic.  It wasn't just one orc sitting back and shooting at Boromir, it was a lot of them, shooting a 'rain of arrows' and always at him.  And he was able to make the Orcs withdraw twice, before they finally took him on the third assault.


So, that's my argument for Boromir.  But, I think it all depends upon the situation.  If it is straight open combat, no bows, just simply swords and shields, then it's still a tough one to decide.  I think Boromir in FOTR could have beaten FOTR Aragorn.  But, I think that by the Return of the King Aragorn has grown and become greater than he was even before, and it's dissappointing Boromir dies in The Fellowship of the Ring.  So, I think ROTK Aragorn could beat Boromir, but I don't know about FOTR Aragorn.



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I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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I agree mostly with what you sait Lord Lorien, but on point I disagree. You say that Aragorn grew much between FOTR and ROTK. I disagree. I think in FOTR he was simply keeping the power he had hidden, and only when the time came, in ROTK he came forth and showed his true power. Indeed he grew, but I don't think the difference was so considerable, and I think that if challenged an in need the FOTR Aragorn would have shown his true power. And as a comparison I could easily offer Gandalf, that did the same thing. Even after his returning to ME, many could say that the Gandalf from Helm's Deep grew to become the Gandalf from the gates of Minas Tirith.

-- Edited by The One at 20:07, 2006-07-29

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Valar
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TM, and now that you bring that up it makes sense.  Boromir seemed to be the antagonist of the Fellowship, not as in evil, but as in he always had an objection to where the Fellowship was going or what it was doing.  And by Boromir's nature, we can understand why.  The last post I talked about him being the military leader, so he is used to being the one that's giving orders and commanding, not the person receiving orders.  So, naturally when he gets into the Fellowship, and he's not the 'leader' he's always trying to force his own idea, because that's what he did back in Gondor, and in Gondor it worked better.


When Gandalf was leading the company, Boromir would be always the one with his vocal input and objection to the plan, where Aragorn objected to going through Moria, but he did this with Gandalf privately, not openly.  And also, on Caradhras we actually see Aragorn take orders from Boromir.  As through Caradhras it's Boromir who first tells everyone to turn back, or the hobbits will freeze, and Aragorn sort of takes the back seat and follows Boromir's lead in plowing a passage through the snow and carrying the Hobbits out of there.  Which, I think this fits along with what you were saying.  Not necessarily is Aragorn any less than what he will later become, but he is masking his true potential...and it's smart too.  Aragorn is eventually going to claim the Kingship, and in order to do this he needs important people (especially people from Gondor) to support him, and who better than Boromir?  So, up to this point Aragorn kind of just goes along and doesn't openly object Boromir, because he knows how important Boromir will be if his claim is to be accepted.  Of course Boromir ends up dying, but at this point in time Aragorn had joined the Fellowship so he could go to Minas Tirith with Boromir, but plans suddenly change.


Anyway, after Gandalf's death and Aragorn takes the lead, we see a change over Aragorn.  He steps out more and is more willing to take leadership and command, then gets into a few entanglements with Boromir.



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I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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My point exactly.
Well, if Boromir had managed to stay alive during the War of the Ring, he would have become quite an important person in the Reunited Kingdom, as the Steward of Aragorn. And who knows? Maybe Eowyn would have married Boromir and not Faramir...but I guess we'll never really know.
And again I agree with you, I think the moment of Aragorn's change is this moment:

" 'Farewell, Aragorn! Go to Minas Tirith and save my people! I have failed.'
'No!' said Aragorn, taking his hand and kissing his brow. 'You have conquered. Few have gained such a victory. Be at peace! Minas Tirith shall not fall!'
Boromir smiled.
'Which way did they go? Was Frodo there?' said Aragorn.
But Boromir did not speak again.
'Alas!' said Aragorn. 'Thus passes the heir of Denethor, Lord of the Tower of Guard! This is a bitter end. Now the Company is all in ruin. It is I that have failed. Vain was Gandalf's trust in me. What shall I do now? Boromir has laid it on me to go to Minas Tirith, and my heart desires it; but where are the Ring and the Bearer? How shall I find them and save the Quest from disaster?' "

After this, as he becomes one of the Three Hunters he starts to show his true power, but I think he keeps most of it hidden until the Battle of Pelennor. At that time he could have perhaps returned as king, but he knew that it was not the right time, and that Gondor was not yet safe.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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"Aragorn was the tallest of the Company, but Boromir, little less in height, was broader and heavier in build."~The Ring Goes South


Forgive me Lord Lorien but I fail to see how this makes Boromir stronger than Aragorn...



-- Edited by The One at 20:07, 2006-07-29

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Valar
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'broader and heavier in build' doesn't say it all for you?  I can bring up the dictionary again if need be.



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I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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To me 'Broader' means 'wider' or more filled out, whilst Heavier in build means heavier per square inch than Aragorn - Stockier than Aragorn. Neither of them means Stronger in terms of strength as far as I know but please present the dictionary definition if you wish.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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heavier per square inch? you do realize of course that what you are saying makes no sense. weight per square inch is the way pressure is measured so what you just said is...the pressure on Boromir's body was higher then that on Aragorn's body. so please, before you make any hasty remarks do get a dictionary as Lord Lorien suggested. broader and heavier in build doesn't mean he was fatter then Aragorn, Tolkien used these words to clearly say he was stronger, he had bigger muscles...just like a rugby player compared to a football player. the rugby player is heavier in build, and stronger...

-- Edited by The One at 20:08, 2006-07-29

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Valar
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Both terms just say that Boromir was thicker and physically bigger than Aragorn.  'Broader' is often used with shoulders, someone with 'broad shoulders' has thick and big shoulders.  Take for instance Linebackers in the NFL, they're shoulders are big and broad, not 'more filled out.'


And 'heavier in build', when you talk about someone's build, it's typically about they're body.  'He has a slim build.'  Well here, Boromir's build was heavier than Aragorn's.  And I doubt Tolkien meant Boromir was out of shape and 'stocky'.  Just read through his physical contributions throughout the books (carrying the Hobbit's on Caradhras, leading the way and plowing a path through the snow, steering the boats past the rapids of Sarn Gebir, single-handedly holding the door in the Chamber of Mazarbul when the Orcs come).  And this comment here doesn't seem like it would come from someone who was 'heavy, 'heavy' as in big and out of shape:


 'But how are we to get down there, even if you have cut through the drift?' said Pippin, voicing the thought of all the hobbits.
 'Have hope!' said Boromir. 'I am weary, but I still have some strength left...'~The Ring Goes South


That just doesn't seem like a comment that someone who was 'more filled out' or 'stocky/overweight' would make. Nice try with the meaning of the two words...'broad' and 'heavier in build,' but I very much doubt they go to mean Boromir was overweight and out of shape.  I have no idea what you are talking about pounds per square inch.  But, broad means 'thick' and heavier in build, means his body was bigger than Aragorn's.


Both could be taken in different ways...it could show that Boromir was 'thicker' than Aragorn in the sense that he was more chunky and overweight...same with 'heavier in build.'  But, if you're suggesting that then I think you need to reread through what Boromir does throughout the Fellowship.  Anytime the Fellowship needs some feet of strength and muscular power, they turn to Boromir (or Boromir just says I'm doing it )  So, if you're suggesting that Tolkien was calling Boromir 'stocky' and out of shape, I suggest reading through again. 


Now neither 'broad' or 'heavier in build' goes to directly meaning strength.  But, that's what is being said here:


"Aragorn was the tallest of the Company, but Boromir, little less in height, was broader and heavier in build."


I bolded the word 'but,' because it establishes that Aragorn was taller than Boromir, but Boromir was physically bigger than Aragorn.  Again, neither term is a direct synonym or doesn't mean 'stronger.'  However, just apply some common sense and if you see this tall guy, but someone who was only a 'little less in height,' and his 'build' was greater than the other person, just by going off how they look physically who would you think is the stronger?



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I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Clearly our countries have two different meanings Lord Lorien.


Stockier in Britain means broader, bigger built, wider, whilst heavier in build means simply heavier.


When I gave the heavier per inch example I was merely trying to show you that if Aragorn and Boromir were exactly the same size, Boromir would be heavier as he is more heavily built.


TM if you cannot contrbute anything new stay out of it.



-- Edited by The One at 20:09, 2006-07-29

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Valar
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I think we have a different view of 'stocky' because I've always taken that to mean overweight.


As far as 'heavier in build' yes it does mean Boromir was heavier.  I'll take a famous NBA athlete over here...Lebron James, for his height he is actually overweight.  He is 6'6 about 250, but probably about 10% body fat as he is nothing but muscle.  Would you classify that as a 'heavy build,' comparing his size to his weight he could be classified as 'heavy.'


And where I was trying to get at, is someone who is broader and has a 'heavier build' the impression one would get, just looking at them is he was stronger.  And seeing as far as what Boromir does as far as 'strongman' wise in the Fellowship, there's no reason for me to think differently.



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I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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I would say that it is highly likely that Boromir was stronger than Aragorn. However all I am stating is that the terms 'Broader' and 'Heavier in build' don't really entirely conclude that if you see what i mean.

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Valar
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And I admit that.   Neither, term is a synonym denoting Boromir was 'stronger.'

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I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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I hate to say it but fate is on Aragorn's side in a fight. He was necessary in the War of the Ring, and Boromir really wasnt. So if fate can be so cruel to Gollum, I imagine Boromir would not fare much better.

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Soldier of the East - Rank 4
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Why would you hate to say that Celethil.

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Because I like both characters and I hate for things like this to be left up to fate. They appear to be nearly evenly matched at arms.

Why couldnt the question be Aragorn vs Sam, or Elrond vs Grima?

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Soldier of the East - Rank 4
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Who would win in a fight, Aragorn or Sam.


Or; who would win in a fight, Elrond or Grima.


New one. Who would win in a fight Elrond or agent Smith.


 



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Sam would make a surprise attack using his trusty frying pan and win.
Grima would stab Elrond and win, but would be shot down by Hobbit archers in the next second.
And the last one would have no victor.
Agent Smith would have no powers in Arda so Elrond would really beat him up.

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Soldier of the East - Rank 4
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True on the first two, but as we see in the Metrix realoded, the agents are just as good at doging swords as they are at doging bullets. Therefore, now winer. But for a diferent reason.



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the agents had no powers outside the matrix. Smith could have indeed destroyed all the machines at the end of Revolutions, but he was stopped.

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Soldier of the East - Rank 4
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How do you know that Arda is the matrix.

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