Tolkien Top 100 Middle Earth's Top 100
Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
 

Topic: Daeron of Doriath

Post Info
Elf of Beleriand - Rank 2
Status: Offline
Posts: 61
Date: Jul 6, 2006
Daeron of Doriath

The greatest minstrel ever? Though he be a negative character?

I would confidently claim that the most talented rhapsods were born in the Vanyarin society. But could their lamentations ever outdo those of their Grey-elven counterpart [and the Noldorin prince reffered to as equally good] whose actual sufferance reached Aman as mere distant echo, no matter how detailed?

Do you think Daeron's love was pure? He was sooner jealous, twice a traitor. But his emotion did give birth to all too touching lyrical wailing. I need to know in what degree he was desperate, mad with love, and in what -- evil.

__________________

[under construction]

Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
Status: Offline
Posts: 3118
Date: Jul 8, 2006
umm...this is an interesting subject but I am afraid I know very little about it
all I know is that he devised the runes to represent words in Sindarin which were then used by Elves and mostly by Dwarves...
perhaps you could give us some more information about Daeron...

__________________
Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
Status: Offline
Posts: 2161
Date: Jul 9, 2006
I agree with TM. I can't say I know alot about this Daeron.

__________________

Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!

Elf of Beleriand - Rank 2
Status: Offline
Posts: 61
Date: Jul 12, 2006
Daeron is somewhat marginal. He did devise the runes. But he in addition played a more or less significant role in "Of Beren and Luthien". Perhaps you would prefer to find out yourselves. Or, then again, not, since he is only mentioned in two or three paragraphs.

__________________

[under construction]

Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
Status: Offline
Posts: 3118
Date: Jul 12, 2006
I just thought to give the quotes reffering to Daeron so you don't have to search so much:

"Of the long years of peace that followed after the coming of Denethor there is little tale. In those days, it is said, Daeron the Minstrel, chief loremaster of the kingdom of Thingol, devised his Runes; and the Naugrim that came to Thingol learned them, and were well-pleased with the device, esteeming Daeron's skill higher than did the Sindar, his own people."

"There came even Green-elves from Ossiriand, the Land of Seven Rivers, far off under the walls of the Blue Mountains; but out of Doriath there came but two messengers, Mablung and Daeron, bearing greetings from the King."

"But Daeron the minstrel also loved Lúthien, and he espied her meetings with Beren, and betrayed them to Thingol."

"Then Lúthien, perceiving that no help would come from any other on earth, resolved to fly from Doriath and come herself to him; but she sought the aid of Daeron, and he betrayed her purpose because he would not deprive Lúthien of the lights of heaven, lest she fail and fade, and yet would restrain her, he caused a house to be built from which she should not escape."

"Upon Doriath evil days had fallen. Grief and silence had come upon all its people when Lúthien was lost. Long they had sought for her in vain. And it is told that in that time Daeron the minstrel of Thingol strayed from the land, and was seen no more. He it was that made music for the dance and song of Lúthien, before Beren came to Doriath; and he had loved her, and set all his thought of her in his music. He became the greatest of all the minstrels of the Elves east of the Sea, named even before Maglor son of Fëanor. But seeking for Lúthien in despair he wandered upon strange paths, and passing over the mountains he came into the East of Middle-earth, where for many ages he made lament beside dark waters for Lúthien, daughter of Thingol, most beautiful of all living things."

And I guess that Daeron's character is pretty much summoned up by Tolkien in the Index of Names from The Silmarillion:

Daeron Minstrel and chief loremaster of King Thingol; deviser of the Cirth (Runes); enamoured of Lúthien and twice betrayed her.

So...I guess I now understand what Elvish Avantguardian meant.
But unfortunately...I don't know anything about Daeron...for the simple reason that no more information exists.
I must agree, that even though he was the greatest minstrel ever, he is indeed marginal...unfortunately.
And in the same time I must agree...Daeron's intense feelings for Luthien did probably give a special touch to his creations, which made him become the greatest minstrel ever.
And...about the evil part...I don't know.
The problem is we know only very little...
But if I judge by the information that we do have, I would personally say that he never wanted anything else but Luthien to be safe...safe together with him.
He probably realised that if Luthien followed Beren it would also bring her death.
And, of course one could speculate that Daeron did perhaps think that Luthien might wish to join Beren in death, and perhaps even beyond it. So if she gave up her life as an Elf and became human, there would be no chance left for Daeron, not in life, nor in death to meet Luthien.
Even though he did betray Luthien twice he hoped that in this way he would help her...help her stay away from danger, and away from the one she loved.
Still...I wouldn't call him evil...he for example never attempted to kill Beren even though he did probably hate him...
Daeron was just a tragical figure that, even though was the greatest minstrel ever, couldn't compete with Beren...and that had to resort to betrayal in order ot perhaps have a good chance to be together with Luthien.

__________________
Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
Status: Offline
Posts: 619
Date: Sep 22, 2006
I'm not sure where I first heard of this theory, but didn't Tolkien make Daeron and Luthien, brother and sister in his later writings?


I will have to do some digging to support that, but I know I read it somewhere.

__________________
Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
Status: Offline
Posts: 3118
Date: Sep 22, 2006
interesting Celethil
perhaps Tolkien was intending to transform the love of Daeron for Luthien from a romantical, intimate one into a platonic, brother-sister love.
So maybe Daeron would have tried to get rid of Beren in order to protect his sister
still, I won't go further speculating until someone can find some information on this.

__________________
Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Valar
Status: Offline
Posts: 140
Date: Sep 22, 2006

It was actually an early idea conceived by Tolkien, and appears in BoLT II The Tale of Tinuviel.  (Here it is Dairon):


'Two children had Tinwelint [Thingol] then, Dairon and Tinúviel.'



__________________
I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
Status: Offline
Posts: 3118
Date: Sep 22, 2006

nice find


and considering, I maintain my opinion about the ideas I oresebted in the previous post as far as Daeron and Luthien are concerned


still, BolT means he abandoned the idea of platonic love and chose intimate love instead



__________________
Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
Status: Offline
Posts: 619
Date: Sep 22, 2006
Wow. Lord Lorien you are a loremaster. I knew I had heard it before, but no way would I have been able to locate the reference. Thank you.

Are there any other references to Daeron being her brother?

__________________
Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Black Numenorean - Rank 3
Status: Offline
Posts: 87
Date: Oct 13, 2006

[quote=The complete Tolkien companion]Daeron = a grey elf of the First Age; according to Elvish tradition, the minstrel and loremaster of Thingol King of Doriath. He is a shadowy figure (his name actually means 'shadowy', or perhaps 'hidden') on the boarders of several tales of those days, chiefly that of Beren and Luthien. Daeron is said to have loved Luthien, and to have twice betrayed her to her father in in the matter of Beren od the Edain. The minstral afterwards went away into the east and became lost to the knowledge of elves


from the quote above, it appears that he truely did love Luthien, and would do anything to protect her, even if it hurt him to do it. So i don't think that he was evil, just conserned for a elves safety. 



__________________
Join today, and you will be richly rewarded http://dualfaction.com/forum/index.php
Tom Bombadil
Status: Offline
Posts: 1886
Date: Apr 1, 2007

Confused



-- Edited by ArwenLegolas at 03:17, 2007-04-06

__________________

Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!
Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow!
Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!

Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
Status: Offline
Posts: 2372
Date: Apr 1, 2007
I still find it odd why Tolkien chose for an Elf-servant of Thingol to surpass one of the sons of mighty Feanor in terms of music. Anyway I wonder if there is any mention of when Daeron perished?

__________________
My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
Status: Offline
Posts: 3118
Date: Apr 1, 2007
No there is not.
As much as I appreciate you taking your time to give us this excerpt ArwenLegolas, I would like to kindly ask not to re-post information which already was posted in a particular thread before.

__________________
Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
 
Page 1 of 1  sorted by
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.

Chatbox

Please log in to join the chat!

Previous poll results (What is the 'Mightiest' weapon in Tolkiens myth?): Gurthang, blade of Turin - 28%, Narsil, sword of Elendil - 12%, Anduril, Sword of King Ellesar Aragorn - 23%, The Mace of the Witch King - 5%, Grond the dread hammer/hammer of the underworld -19%, Black axe of Gothmog - 4, Glamdring of Gandalf - 7%, Orcrist of Thorin - 1% A NEW POLL HAS BEEN ADDED TO TOLKIEN FORUMS Tolkien Forums - The Mythical world of J.R.R Tolkien