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Topic: Tulkas

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Elf of Rivendell - Rank 2
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Date: Jun 15, 2006
Tulkas

I recently read the Silmarillion again and I noticed that Tulkas joined the other Valar later- he came to them.Where did he come from?Why wasn't he with them from the beginning? and is he any different in power than the other Valar?

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Orc captain of Morgul - Rank 5
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Not all the spirits chose to come into Arda. Tulkas came later to dobattle with Melkor because he was most warlike of the Valar. 

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Tulkas came just like all the other Valar from beyond the walls of night, from somewhere else in Ea.

"It is told among the wise that the First War began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was any thing that grew or walked upon earth; and for long Melkor had the upper hand. But in the midst of the war a spirit of great strength and hardihood came to the aid of the Valar, hearing in the far heaven that there was battle in the Little Kingdom; and Arda was filled with the sound of his laughter. So came Tulkas the Strong, whose anger passes like a mighty wind, scattering cloud and darkness before it; and Melkor fled before his wrath and his laughter, and forsook Arda, and there was peace for a long age. And Tulkas remained and became one of the Valar of the Kingdom of Arda; but Melkor brooded in the outer darkness, and his hate was given to Tulkas for ever after."
(The Silmarillion - Of the Beginning of Days)

He was not there from the beginning because he wasn't like the other Vala. He didn't really care about what happened, he wasn't so interested in the fate of Arda, he only came there to help them.

"He has little heed for either the past or the future, and is of no avail as a counsellor, but is a hardy friend."
(The Silmarillion - Valaquenta)

And about his powers here is a quote:

"Greatest in strength and deeds of prowess is Tulkas, who is surnamed Astaldo, the Valiant. He came last to Arda, to aid the Valar in the first battles with Melkor. He delights in wrestling and in contests of strength; and he rides no steed, for he can outrun all things that go on feet, and he is tireless. His hair and beard are golden, and his flesh ruddy; his weapons are his hands. He has little heed for either the past or the future, and is of no avail as a counsellor, but is a hardy friend."
(The Silmarillion - Valaquenta)

His power is that he is the best wrestler of all the Valar. So he is as we see a Valar that has many physical powers, but that lacks in mental powers.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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"Greatest in strength and deeds of prowess is Tulkas, who is surnamed Astaldo, the Valiant. He came last to Arda, to aid the Valar in the first battles with Melkor. He delights in wrestling and in contests of strength; and he rides no steed, for he can outrun all things that go on feet, and he is tireless. His hair and beard are golden, and his flesh ruddy; his weapons are his hands. He has little heed for either the past or the future, and is of no avail as a counsellor, but is a hardy friend."


"Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World."


It is told among the wise that the First War began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was any thing that grew or walked upon earth; and for long Melkor had the upper hand. But in the midst of the war a spirit of great strength and hardihood came to the aid of the Valar, hearing in the far heaven that there was battle in the Little Kingdom; and Arda was filled with the sound of his laughter. So came Tulkas the Strong, whose anger passes like a mighty wind, scattering cloud and darkness before it; and Melkor fled before his wrath and his laughter, and forsook Arda, and there was peace for a long age. And Tulkas remained and became one of the Valar of the Kingdom of Arda; but Melkor brooded in the outer darkness, and his hate was given to Tulkas for ever after.


 


-All from The Silmarillion-


 


So as you see some of the Ainur chose to stay in the void with Eru, whilst others descended into the kingdom of Arda. Of the ones who stayed in the void it is clear that Tulkas is one. However when the descended Valar' need was high Tulkas came from the Void and this extra Valar ontop of the existing was too much for melkor to withstand - the straw that broke the cammels back. So after they drove Melkor away Tulkas became One the the Valar - he is no different from the others save he descended last


 


Many think that this therefore means that Tulkas is mightier than Melkor as he managed to drive him out of Arda. This is not true as i said above 'he was the straw that broke the cammels back'. Another Valar to the existing forces against Melkor was too much for Melkor to withstand.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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I'd say that Tulkas was only physically stronger then Melkor, but that overall Melkor was stronger then Tulkas

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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I would say Mightier or more Powerfull rather than stronger.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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ok, mightier.
I meant the same thing anyway
because I meant stronger not necessarily as...physical strength, nut as like overally strength.
but, yes same thing

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Yes many people therefore think that Tulkas is mightier than Melkor becuase it was him who Melkor had fled from, but in truth it was just another foe too many for Melkor.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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and also Tulkas is to wrestle with Melkor during the Dagor Dagorath and defeat him, but only again by superior physical power, not overall power

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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No you are incorrect here TM.


In the Dagor dagorath Melkor is only defeated by Turin Turumbar. He may have wrestled with Tulkas but certainly was not defeated by him.


I can get a quote if you don't beleive me.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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there is a huge difference between defeated and killed if you know what I mean

both Tulkas and Turin defeated Melkor
the first one in wrestling, the second one defeated him for good by kiling him

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Soldier of the East - Rank 4
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Where did Turin kill Morgoth???

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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in the Dagor Dagorath, the last abd greatest battle of them all

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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To give you more information than TM has here is what Glorfindel1235 wrote in another thread:





I will give you my account of the Final attle:


It takes place at the end of days, perhaps in the 9thAge or more.


The Ainur and Elves are now wearied with the world having inhabited it for so long. This is when Melkor, after looking down upon the kingdom of Manwe for so long, sees his chance to re-enter. In doing so he arrives on the Plains of Valinor with most of his old minions resurrected to his service.


During this ultimate Battle Sauron is slayed by Olorin, who worked endlessly in the Third Age to bring his ruin.


Also Ar-pharazon and his fleet come out of the Caves of the Forgotten and fight for either Melkor or the Valar, I cannot remember which.


Melkor duels with Turin and Eonwe, but neither manage to bring him down. Then Turin rises above the rest and duels with melkor, and deals his death blow, thus being avenged of his familes curse.


"Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In  that  day Tulkas  shall strive  with Melko,  and on  his right shall  stand  Fionwe  and  on  his  left  Turin  Turambar,  son of Hurin,  Conqueror  of  Fate,  coming  from  the  halls  of Mandos; and it shall be the  black sword  of Turin  that deals  unto Melko."



Turin is then counted as one of the gods:



"But of Men  in that  day the  prophecy speaks  not, save  of Turin only, and him it names among the Gods."





There is another way the Battle goes however. It is said that somehow Melkor contrives a quarrel between the sun and moon and all the Stars fall out of the Sky. I suggest reading further into the History of Middle-earth to gain greater understanding.


"After the triumph of the Gods, Earendel sailed still in the seas of heaven, but the Sun scorched him and the Moon hunted him in the sky . . . Then the Valar drew his white ship Wingelot over the land of Valinor, and they filled it with radiance and hallowed it, and launched it through the Door of Night. And long Earendel set sail into the starless vast, Elwing at his side, the Silmaril upon his brow, voyaging the Dark behind the world, a glimmering and fugitive star. And ever and anon he returns and shines behind the courses of the Sun and Moon above the ramparts of the Gods, brighter than all other stars, the mariner of the sky, keeping watch against Morgoth upon the confines of the world. Thus shall he sail until he sees the Last Battle fought upon the plains of Valinor.


"Thus spake the prophecy of Mandos, which he declared in Valmar at the judgement of the Gods, and the rumour of it was whispered among all the Elves of the West: when the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth shall come back through the Door out of the Timeless Night; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon, but Earendel shall come upon him as a white flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate; and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the Children of Hurin and all men be avenged.


"Thereafter shall the Silmarils be recovered out of sea and earth and air; for Earendil shall descend and yield up that flame that he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall bear the Three and yield their fire to rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth; and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the light goes out over all the world. In that light the Gods will again grow young, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin only, and him it names among the Gods."


There is about as much infor as you will ever have on the Dagor Dagorath, The Last battle and the Day of Doom when Morgoth returns.


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Soldier of the East - Rank 4
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Thanks for that MoS. I've never heard that. I find it interesting that it says that Turin came out of the halls of mandos. I thought that only elves went there.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Yes indeed Elves go to the Halls of Mandos and await there reincarnation, unless they did gret evil deeds in there life (like Feanor) and they will stay there for much longer or forever. Dwarves say they have a seperate section in those Halls which they go to and wait until after the Last battle and help rebuild the world with Aule (to destroy Melkor you must first destroy Arda).


Men pass through the Halls of Mandos and then over the Walls of night to where none know. However when Turin died he had not fulfilled the doom that was set upon him so he stayed in the Halls of Mandos until the Last Battle arose.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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indeed, it seems from the quotes he was the only Man worth being mentioned

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Well i suppose that was the idear - Men were portrayed as relatively unimportant in the First Great Theme. Its not until after the Dagor Dagorath that the complete dominion of Men comes with the ssecond GreatTheme of Iluvatar, when the Music of the Ainur is played correct without the discord of Melkor....

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