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Topic: Ent's souls after death

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Orc captain of Morgul - Rank 5
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Date: Jun 14, 2006
Ent's souls after death

What do you think is the fate of an Ents soul when one dies or is destroyed (like in the case of burning)?
Is there anything that suggests something about this?

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: Jun 14, 2006

Ents are, in essense, Maiar, therefore there fates would be bound up with all other Ainur.


"Then Manwė awoke, and he went down to Yavanna upon Ezellohar, and he sat beside her beneath the Two Trees. And Manwė said: 'O Kementįri, Eru hath spoken, saying: "Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared."
(The Silmarillion)


As we can see Eru will send spirits from afar, which can only be one thing - Maiar, or Valar, though the former is much more likely. At least for certainty we can tell that Ents are not Animals or plants (Kelvar and Olvar).


As to there fate, perhaps there is someone better who can tell you what this entails.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Here is the only other relevant quote I found:

“No one knew whence they (Ents) came or first appeared. The High Elves said that the Valar did not mention them in the 'Music'. But some (Galadriel) were [of the] opinion that when Yavanna discovered the mercy of Eru to Aulė in the matter of the Dwarves, she besought Eru (through Manwė) asking him to give life to things made of living things not stone, and that the Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else that slowly took the likeness of trees owing to their inborn love of trees. (Not all were good [words illegible]) The Ents thus had mastery over stone. The males were devoted to Oromė, but the Wives to Yavanna.”
(Letter #247)

As we see, the spirits either entered trees, either took this shape.

Now as to their end, it would be just like the end of any other Maia in ME.

If they were good they would return to Valinor, or to Illuvatar, or where they wished, if not they would be denied the returning, just like Saruman was not allowed to return.

As we see in the quote, "not all were good", so we can suspect some evil Huorns would not return to Valinor.

And I say Valinor because I hold it likely that they were Maia of Yavanna (Ents) or of Manwe (Eagles) and they went to serve their masters.

-- Edited by The Might at 18:36, 2006-06-14

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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But as it says the 'words are illegible' so the theory that not all Ents were good, could be misinterpreted.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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ah mos111...
of course not all were good

Treebeard says that clear in lotr - that some of the Ents have now black hearts because of Saruman and would harm any creature



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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Quick note: I have forteited the name 'Mouthofsauron111' and exchanged it with a simpler version which is easier to write.


You say 'Some Ents would harm any creature' - that does not nessersarily mean evil. They may be aggressive or even violent (but most likely over defencive) but that doesn't mean they were truly evil. Would you say a Tazmanian devil was evil? No, they are vicous, but that isn't evil.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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you know what?
I won't develop on that
I don't care what the other words meant.
He says that not all were good.

and it is easy to understand that as many of them became Huorns and forgot their mission in ME, just like the Istari except Olorin.
and some could have become just like Saruman evil.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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That is doubtful. The text states that the wording is illegible so its certainly not within your authority to speculate what might have been written there.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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'When that happens to a tree, you find that some have bad hearts. Nothing to do with their wood: I do not mean that. Why, I knew some good old willows down the Entwash, gone long ago, alas! They were quite hollow, indeed they were falling all to pieces, but as quiet and sweet-spoken as a young leaf. And then there are some trees in the valleys under the mountains, sound as a bell, and bad right through. That sort of thing seems to spread. There used to be some very dangerous parts in this country. There are still some very black patches.'

This is what Treebeard says about some trees, that are "bad right through".

Then the reaction of Merry and Pippin:

'Like the Old Forest away to the north, do you mean?' asked Merry.
'Aye, aye, something like, but much worse. I do not doubt there is some shadow of the Great Darkness lying there still away north; and bad memories are handed down. But there are hollow dales in this land where the Darkness has never been lifted, and the trees are older than I am.

So it is clear that the trees Treebeard was talking about were much more dangerous then even Old Man Willow.

And here is what we know about Old Man Willow:

“But none were more dangerous than the Great Willow: his heart was rotten, but his strength was green; and he was cunning, and a master of winds, and his song and thought ran through the woods on both sides of the river. His grey thirsty spirit drew power out of the earth and spread like fine root-threads in the ground, and invisible twig-fingers in the air, till it had under its dominion nearly all the trees of the Forest from the Hedge to the Downs.”

ANd also about the Old Forest:

Tom’s words laid bare the hearts of trees and their thoughts, which were often dark and strange, and filled with a hatred of things that go free upon the earth, gnawing, biting, breaking, hacking, burning: destroyers and usurpers. It was not called the Old Forest without reason, for it was indeed ancient, a survivor of vast forgotten woods; and in it there lived yet, ageing no quicker than the hills, the fathers of the fathers of trees, remembering times when they were lords. The countless years had filled them with pride and rooted wisdom, and with malice.

And remember, the trees of the Old Forest were not the worst, there were worse trees in Fangorn.

That clearly proves that the statement Tolkien made in his letter is valid, with or without the rest of the words.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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You have not spotted the fatal floor TM:


Now your talking about Trees not Ents.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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fatal floor?

anyway, indeed the quotes all reffer to trees and not to Ents

but still, as long as the words are illegible they are equal to 0.
he says some Ents were evil bla bla bla
as we will never know what that bla bla bla meant, we can say some Ents were evil.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Well, I am not desputing that, what i am saying is you cannot interpret Tolkien's words if they don't exist.


And i would say 'evil' is too harsh a word - Vicous, Ungood, Aggressive, over defensive, nasty etc are better substitutes.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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yes, indeed you can't interpret them if they don't exist
but you can interprete what he says - that some Ents had become evil.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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The Might wrote:


“No one knew whence they (Ents) came or first appeared. The High Elves said that the Valar did not mention them in the 'Music'. But some (Galadriel) were [of the] opinion that when Yavanna discovered the mercy of Eru to Aulė in the matter of the Dwarves, she besought Eru (through Manwė) asking him to give life to things made of living things not stone, and that the Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else that slowly took the likeness of trees owing to their inborn love of trees. (Not all were good [words illegible]) The Ents thus had mastery over stone. The males were devoted to Oromė, but the Wives to Yavanna.” (Letter #247)

Either you cannot read TM, or as usual you are being stubborn. WORDS ARE ILLEGIBLE WHERE IT SAYs ABOUT SOME ENTS BEING NOT GOOD. And it says 'Not good' - thats not to say evil either.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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oh, that is true
sorry Glorfindel, that puts the problem into a different light
because not good could also mean that they forgot their mission in ME, which did indeed happen to many of the Ents.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Exactly. Even if you interpret the illegible words, 'Not good' does not mean evil.


According to Tolkien conservationists are doing ungood as they are breaking the designs of Eru, but you would hardly call them evil.



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Elves of the Third Age - Rank 1
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Date: Jun 16, 2006

To answer Bauglir's original question:


The Ents spirits did not come from Yavanna or from Valinor, they were merely sent by Yavanna to occupy the trees, so by that reasoning, the spirits would return to wherever it was that they came from. But that is a theory that I myself do not subscribe to. For one, only three of the Ents during the War of the Ring (Fangorn, Finglas and Fladrif) are the original Ents 'created' by Yavanna, the rest are descendents of the originals. Thus, not all the Ents are spirits inhabiting trees, and so this idea cannot apply to all the Ents. Furthermore, though the Ents are essentially spirits, they reproduce as would be expected from any of the other incarnates (there is no example of a spirit reproducing) and so I would expect -- particularly when bearing the above facts in mind -- that their fate after death would be more akin to that of the Incarnates. And this seems to be supported by Tolkien.


It is plain that there would be for Ents no re-union in 'history' — but Ents and their wives being rational creatures would find some 'earthly paradise' until the end of this world: beyond which the wisdom neither of Elves nor Ents could see. Though maybe they shared the hope of Aragorn that they were 'not bound for ever to the circles of the world and beyond them is more than memory.' (Letter 338, Emphasis is mine)


We can get a lot of useful evidence from this quote. First of all, that the Ents do not know for certain their fate after death, again more typical of the incarnates than of spirits (as is the very concept of death!) Furthermore, we are given a probability for this fate. Tha main suggestion seems to be that they would go to Valinor, the earthly paradise. But it is also mentioned that this is not ceratin, and that the ents themselves, possibly finding this undesirable, might hope that they share the same fate of men, and are not bound to the circles of the world.


So my opinion would be, Probably valinor, Possibly out of the Circles of the World.



-- Edited by Earwen at 21:26, 2006-06-16

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Good post there.

I found another quote sustaining this idea:

“No one knew whence they (Ents) came or first appeared. The High Elves said that the Valar did not mention them in the 'Music'. But some (Galadriel) were [of the] opinion that when Yavanna discovered the mercy of Eru to Aulė in the matter of the Dwarves, she besought Eru (through Manwė) asking him to give life to things made of living things not stone, and that the Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else that slowly took the likeness of trees owing to their inborn love of trees. (Not all were good [words illegible]) The Ents thus had mastery over stone. The males were devoted to Oromė, but the Wives to Yavanna.”
(Letter #247)

As we see Ents were in the beginning indeed spirits sent by Yavanna to live in trees.
But, would this necessarily only aply to the oldest of Ents?
And...didn't Entings perhaps get a Maia soul as they were born?
hmm...

-- Edited by The Might at 22:00, 2006-06-16

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Elves of the Third Age - Rank 1
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I have not found anything that can answer your question The Might so it is quite possible that entings had maia souls.
I cannot prove you wrong but I tend to believe that entings did not have maia souls. Otherwise that would mean a new maia coming into Arda every time a enting is created would it not? And it was an Ainur's choice whether to enter the world or not. I don't think that a maia soul would be put into an enting just because a new one had been made.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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well...I dunno
...but I thought for example the Eagles all had Maiar souls...even the baby Eagles...???

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