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Topic: Dior Eluchil

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Orc captain of Morgul - Rank 5
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Date: Jun 10, 2006
Dior Eluchil

When Dior Eluchil, son of Beren and Luthien, was killed, did his spirit go to the Halls of Mandos? The same question goes for Elured and Elurin, his sons, and remember that their mother was 100% elf. These 3, after all, never got a "choice".


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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Interesting question...Not sure of the answer though

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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wow.
this is a great thread
rarely do I see such an interesting thread
good idea Bauglir.

"Presumably
this was written when Beren was an Elf, not a Man (see p. 139);
Dior son of Beren and Tinuviel appears in the Tale of the
Nasglafring, but there Beren is an Elf, and Dior is not Half-elven."
(The Book of the Lost Tales II)

this quote shows us that if Beren was a Man, then Dior was Half-Elven. so here no clear decision is made

However it seems he chose to be an elf.
why?
here:

"and Dior his son
was left ruler of the brown Elves and the green, and Lord of the
Nauglafring."
(The Book of the Lost Tales II)

lord of the elves, seems a title for an elf, not for a Man.

And then the clear statement:

"Now fare the long days of Elfinesse unto that time when Tuor
dwelt in Gondolin; and children then had Dior the Elf,"
(The Book of the Lost Tales II)

there you have it-Diot the Elf.

and again:
'Dior the Elf' is an emendation from 'Dior then an aged Elf'.
(The Book of the Lost Tales II)

I haven't found anything on Elured and Elurin, but I guess they made the same choice, though I can not be sure



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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Orc captain of Morgul - Rank 5
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Interesting quotes there TM.
You said that "..but I guess they made the same choise.." but the didn't make a chioce. Maybe you meant to say, they took the same path? 


Anyway, even with those quotes I think that it is more likely that Dior took the mortal path because Dior's parents were both mortal (Luthian having been converted to so) before he was concieved, and I personally think that a mixed race (Human/Elf) would not be declined the "Gift to Man".


Any other opinions?



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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still Bauglir.
the fact is there are no quotes saying that he chose the path of a Man, and he is never presented as a Man, but as Dior the Elf.
So it is quite difficult for me to think that he was a Man.

I found some more quotes.

' Dior their
son, it is said, spoke both tongues: his father's, and his mother's,
the Sindarin of Doriath. For he said: 'I am the first of the Peredil
(Half-elven),. but I am also the heir of King Elwe, the Eluchil.'
(Peoples of Middle-earth)

As we see, Dior himself presents himself as a Peredil, a Half-Elf.

"Eärendil is Túor's son & father of Elros (First King of Númenor) and Elrond, their mother being Elwing daughter of Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien: so the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line. The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. "
(Letter #153)

This is all Tolkien explains on the subject, and he doesn't explain anything about Dior, Elured or Elurin.

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
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Since Dior was born after Luthien's choice, which made luthien more or less a woman rather than an elf maid, Dior and his children would probably also be considered the race of men, although as The Might pointed out, Dior does present himself as half-elven, so I think that there is two possible outcomes.



  • Dior and his sons were given a choice whether to take the path of men, to leave the circles of the world, or to go to the Halls of Mandos like elves.

  • They were not denied the 'gift' of men, and thus, they left the circles of the world

If the latter is the truth, then their spirits would have passed through Mandos' Halls anyway, and then gone to where only Iluvatar knows.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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As I have already shown by quotes it really isn't important what choice the parents made.
As it is stated in the Letter #153, Half-Elven are to make this choice for themselves.
So I personally think they would be allowed to make the choice in the Halls of Mandos if they hadn't already done that.
Still, I personally believe that Dior at least chose to be an Elf based on the quotes from my first post, where he is presented as "Dior the Elf", and not "Dior the Half-Elven".

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
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Dior did rule the brown elves but this doesn't mean that he had made the choice to become one of them. As for these quotes which The Might gave:


"Now fare the long days of Elfinesse unto that time when Tuor dwelt in Gondolin; and children then had Dior the elf,"
(The Book of Lost Tales)


'Dior the Elf' is an emendation from 'Dior then an aged Elf'.
(The Book of the Lost Tales II)


These quotes may refer to Dior as an elf because he dwelt with them and ruled them, not nessessarily because he was one of them.



I do however think that the quotes that The Might has given do seem to suggest that Dior chose to be of elven kind though, so it is probable that he went to the Halls of Mandos, but far from certain. As for Elured and Elurin however, I cannot find any quotes that suggest what choice they made and I am doubtful that any exist.



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I am just wondering what all the fuss is about. Both men and Elves go to the Halls of Mandos, the difference is Elves stay there and reincarnate, whereas men go straigh through and beyond back to Eru.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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The fuss is about the fate of Dior, Elured and Elurin.
They were also Half-Elves, though their fates are never clearly said.
Some people are interested in such topics, I for example.
And while for Elured or Elurin there is little information, Dior seems to be indicated as an Elf.

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Whether he would count himself an Elf or not is irrelevant to what his overall fate would be, to leave Mandos or to stay. That decision would most likely be up to Mandos or Eru.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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"The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. "
(Letter #153)

They made their own decision.

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Yes but we are not told of the final decision of Dior, so it must have been made in Mandos, after his death.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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yes, but not by Mandos, nor by Eru.
and again, I must repeat myself:
It is almost clearly said that Dior became an elf.
He rules elves.
He is presented as Dior the Elf.

I think we can consider him an elf without Tolkien telling us: "Dior chose to be an Elf."

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Lets say pigions go to hell while rats go to heaven.


If we had a crossbreed between them, but it chose to behave more like a rat all its life would that mean it went to heaven - I think not, what it chooses to do is irrelevant - its essense is the only critical factor.



-- Edited by Glorfindel1235 at 21:52, 2006-06-17

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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I really don't get it...

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Then you cannot read. My last post says it all.


Dior is the pigion/rat crossbreed. If he behaves like a rat all his life, even though he has half pigion blood, does that mean he will go to heaven? No, its what his essense is that counts.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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he chose to be an Elf, that is clearly said
he wasn't a pigeon, nor a rat
he didn't only behave like an Elf, he chose to be an Elf, he wasn't Dior Half-Elven anymore, he was Dior the Elf.

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You clearly do not understand TM, it is not that hard.


Dior was both Man and Elf (pigion and rat). Therefore if he chose to act like an Elf (rat) all his life then that is no way to say he would be able to suffer the same fate as all elves (rats = heaven). His essense (man and elf) is what decides such an execution.



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He didn't only act like an Elf, Glorfindel.
He chose to be an Elf.
He was'nt Dior the pigeon-rat anymore, he was Dior the rat (btw I felt kinda strange writing that)

Again.
He wasn't presented as Dior Half-Elven anymore.
Why?
Because sometime in his life he clearly made his choice.

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Who gave him the authority to do that? Eru?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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nobody gave Arwen or Luthien authority
look again:
"The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. "
(Letter #153)
ok, now you have read you have just learned that Half-Elves have the power to chose.

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Perhaps Im just not seeing this properly, but it seems the source of this discussion stems from the publishing of the rules about the Half-Elven. Can't we just assume that Dior and his children were given a choice as implied by their subsequent actions?

In Dior's case it would seem that given his parentage he would acknowledge his human blood but that he would have considered himself an Elven Lord. It just seems unlikely that Elves would choose to be ruled by a mortal since they would understand that he would not live very long. And I don't believe Dior planned on dying at such a young age.


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no, that is not really the source of the discussion
the discussion is simply about the fate of Dior, was he a Man or an Elf ?
And you don't need any complex rules to figure this one out, as he is named "Dior the Elf"
That's all there is to it...
and as far as Elured and Elurin are concerned, the question is also easy to answer, considering the fact that Dior was an Elf, and that his wife Nimloth was also an Elf

so actually the only real question was in the case of Dior, Elured and Elurin never had a choice before them, as they were considered Elves

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Thanks for clarifying. I really didnt think before I included his children who were definitely Elves.

You are right TM, Dior the Elf pretty much says it all.

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
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no problem, it's all in the books after all

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Yes, Dior is called "Dior the Elf", but where? In the tale of Nauglafring (the precursor of Nauglamir) from the Book of Lost Tales II. And no wonder, because Beren his father is originally an Elf. This has changed in later versions once Beren became a mortal Man.
In fact, Dior should be mortal. Here is an interesting quote, admittedly also from a relatively early source (Quenta Silmarillion, HoMe Vol. V), but I don't believe this view has changed; the passage is similar to the one in the published Silmarillion but has more detail:
"Then Manwe gave judgement and he said: 'To Earendel [the original spelling] I remit the ban, and the peril that he took upon himself out of love for the Two Kindreds shall not fall on him; neither shall it fall upon Elwing who entered into peril for love of Earendel: save only in this: they shall not ever walk again among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Earendel and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.'"
So the choice is given not to all past or future half-Elven, but just to the mentioned ones.
Dior has mortal blood in him whether or not Luthien got converted to a mortal, and is therefore a mortal himself, and his sons likewise. A piece of indirect evidence of his mortality is that the Elves, unlike Men, were not fully grown until at least they turned 50, while Dior already was married and had children when he was about 30.
By the way, Elrond's children are given a different choice: to remain in Middle-earth and become mortal, or to leave it and become as immortal as Elves are.

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'A piece of indirect evidence of his mortality is that the Elves, unlike Men, were not fully grown until at least they turned 50, while Dior already was married and had children when he was about 30.'

 

The detail that Elves reached physical maturity at around 50, or for some 100 years, seems to have been a bit fluid. Tolkien's 'latest' word [since I don't think we have his published word about this matter], appears to be that there was little difference in the maturity rate. Or that is how I interpret the following anyway, from the author's notes to NKE ('neter, kanat, enek'): Note 1:

'C.E. ? netthi. C.E. tth > Q., T. tt; S. þþ > þ. nette meant 'girl approaching the adult' (in her 'teens': the growth of Elvish children after birth was little if at all slower than that of the children of Men). The Common Eldarin stem (wen-ed) wendé 'maiden' applied to all stages up to the fully adult (until marriage).' JRRT, from Vinyar Tengwar 47, texts generally dated 1967-70.

 

Perhaps this was connected with ['they' are the Númenóreans]: 'Thus (as the Eldar) they grew at much the same rate as other Men, but when they had achieved 'full growth' then they aged, or 'wore out', very much more slowly.' Note 1, The Line of Elros, Unfinished Tales.

 

No doubt at one point in the external timeline Tolkien imagined 50 to 100 [from 'Laws And Customs Among the Eldar', which idea itself might represent something that changed internally as the years passed], but maybe it was revised later...

 

... and I hate to guess this, but, maybe JRRT altered the notion as it was just easier to keep track of things smile



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Galin,
Thanks for pointing this out. Apparently there are sources I am not fully aware of, like the 9-4-6 you are referring to, but in the Unfinished Tales I simply missed this. Fortunately my main statement was not fully based on this. I was also wondering if the longevity is increased in the offspring of such mixed unions, but didn't really look into that properly.

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RE: Laws And Customs

I also think the idea in Laws And Customs might be a bit more complicated. Just to include a fuller look...

'(...) Whereas on Earth to them all things in comparison with themselves were fleeting, swift to change and die or pass away, in Aman they endured and did not so soon cheat love with their mortality. On Earth while an Elf-child did but grow to be a man or woman, in some 3000 years, forests would rise and fall, and all the face of the land would change, while birds and flowers innumerable would be born and die in loar upon loar under the wheeling Sun.' Text XI, Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed

Three thousand years! yet I think this might reflect an earlier (internally earlier) maturity rate for Elves, with the rate becoming swifter in Middle-earth. In the same text, it is also said: 'Nonetheless the Eldar 'aged' at the same speed in Aman as they had done in their beginning upon Middle-earth' And Christopher Tolkien noted in his commentary on Text XI: 'I realized that it stands in fact in very close relationship to the manuscript of Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth,...' and in that text Finrod notes:



'This I can well believe,' said Finrod: 'That your bodies suffer in some measure the malice of Melkor. For you live in Arda Marred, as do we, and all the matter of Arda is tainted by him, before ye or we came forth and drew our hroar and their sustenance therefrom: all save only Aman before he came there. For know it is not otherwise with the Quendi themselves: their health and stature is diminished. Already those of us who dwell in Middle-earth, and even we who have returned to it, find that the change* [*the word change was an emendation to the typescript B (only); the manuscript has growth -- footnote by CJRT] of their bodies is swifter than in the beginning. And that, I judge, must forebode that they will prove less strong to last than they were designed to be, though this may not be clearly revealed for many long years.'


Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth (and see Author's note 7 on the Commentary)


This work is generally dated to about the same time (late 1950s) as Laws And Customs too -- noting that the manuscript of the debate is said to be: 'very similar in style and appearance to that of Laws and Customs among the Eldar.'




In the first text an Elf-child took about 3,000 Sun Years to grow to be an adult (here between 20 and 21 Valian Years, interestingly). That said, and despite the rather large difference, I have wondered if this idea was meant to be part of the same general concept as the one from Laws And Customs Among The Eldar (50 years or for some 100), as the idea might be that this rate dwindled in Middle-earth but not in Aman -- the other detail being that in the text Aman it is certain that 1 Valian Year equals 144 Sun Years.

So if this is really all one concept [I think there is also a statement in The Children of Hurin that implies Elf-children age more slowly than mortal children] we could have:

 

A) a longer time between the Awakening of the Elves and the Rebellion of the Noldor and their return to Middle-Earth. That is, if we keep the same dates as in the Annals of Aman but substitute 144 -- which I realize, or think anyway, does not work very well when we get to certain events however.

 

B) early Elves needing about 3,000 years to grow to maturity in Middle-earth. This begins to dwindle [Elves mature faster], but when the Eldar reach Aman this slow rate is restored there.

 

C) in Middle-earth the rate continues to decrease, until we have 50 to 100 years rather, at least at some point.

 

It's rather speculative on my part, admittedly smile

 

I have also wondered about the possibility of all these references being part of the same concept -- in other words, the dwindling in Middle-earth continued so that ultimately the Elves grew at about the same rate as Men -- but I can't really connect that in any compelling way, and Laws And Customs is seemingly imagined as written by a mortal, and so [I think] likely Elfwine, who would have learned about Elves and their customs fairly late [the question of Elfwine being ultimately dropped or not, aside for now] in the game.

 

But again, if at least some of my theory is true, the idea in Laws And Customs then gets wound up with 144 Sun Years for the Valian Year, which is arguably problematic if we simply plug it into the dates given in the Annals [despite nicely 'agreeing' with the Elvish Long Year noted in The Lord of the Rings], which were based upon the much lower number; and then too we would not have a 'constant' number to work with, at least in theory [except in Aman], although that might only matter for any births imagined to be 'in the period of waning' in any case.

 

Or something. I'll stop for now biggrin

 



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RE: Dior Eluchil

Do I understand it right that your theory is that 144 Sun years are to be substituted for one Year of the Valar? And that the time to maturity for Elves drops from 3000 to 50-100?

It might work ok while the bliss lasts in Valinor. It doesn't seem to work at all for the Feanor's rebellion and the exile of the Noldor. Even if Tirion is located at the 'girdle' (equator I suppose) and Helkaraxe close to the North Pole, it should not take that long (they set out in 1495, come close to Helkaraxe in 1497, so at least 144 years for that?). This is just one example, but also if the Valian year is that long, the perception of time by Elves should be very different from that of Men (which is admittedly different anyway) - and wouldn't they be "slower" than Men? They are described as just the opposite.

And so 3000 years to maturity for the Elves in Valinor, yet 50-100 for the Elves in Middle-earth... It is not really clear to what point in (internal) time the Laws and Customs pertain. Both 'after-days' and Noldor are mentioned. But most Noldor departed after the First Age. Could the years needed for maturation drop just within the First Age that much? Or did they drop to that level in some after-days? Also, should there be a difference in that between Noldor and Sindar (or Green Elves at least)?

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'Do I understand it right that your theory is that 144 Sun years are to be substituted for one Year of the Valar?'

 

In the context of the text Aman [text XI, Myths Transformed] this was the new number, but yes my theory imagines this as extending, in a sense, to both Laws And Customs and the Athrabeth. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure if there are any explicit references about the Valian Year in these two works, but in a note to text XI Christopher Tolkien explains that 144 is the new number, agreeing with the Elvish Long year in The Lord of the Rings, and:

note 4: 'we may (...) use the 'Valian Unit': in other words, presumably, the old structure of dates in the chronicles of Aman may be retained, although the meaning of those dates in terms of Middle-earth will be radically different. See note 5.'

note 5: 'There is now a vast discrepancy between Valian Years and 'mortal years' (...) Placing the event 'after or about the time of the sack of Utumno, Valian Year 1100' (...), a gigantic lapse of time could now be conceived between the 'arising' of men and their first appearance in Beleriand.'

 

If this is so I think we would have many more years from the time of the Awakening of the Elves to the return of the Noldor to Middle-earth -- however, as I had already noted earlier, simply plugging in 144, in my opinion, does not work well in all cases.

 

'And that the time to maturity for Elves drops from 3000 to 50-100?'

In Middle-earth yes. I know it seems a lot, but on the other hand Finrod does seem to speak to a waning of some measure, and these three texts, Aman, Laws And Customs, and the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth appear to be written at about the same time. I first thought the 3,000 years spoke to yet another wholly new concept, but then I thought maybe not.



'It might work ok while the bliss lasts in Valinor. It doesn't seem to work at all for the Feanor's rebellion and the exile of the Noldor.'

 

I agree; there are too many years for some things in my opinon. But if Tolkien meant this -- noting Christopher Tolkien's 'presumably' in any case -- then my guess is that he was thinking of extending the years to help account for certain things, but that he perhaps wasn't really focusing on others.

 

'... but also if the Valian year is that long, the perception of time by Elves should be very different from that of Men (which is admittedly different anyway) - and wouldn't they be "slower" than Men? They are described as just the opposite.'

 

I'm not sure I exactly follow you here.



'And so 3000 years to maturity for the Elves in Valinor, yet 50-100 for the Elves in Middle-earth... It is not really clear to what point in (internal) time the Laws and Customs pertain. Both 'after-days' and Noldor are mentioned. But most Noldor departed after the First Age. Could the years needed for maturation drop just within the First Age that much? Or did they drop to that level in some after-days?'

 

I agre it's a bit unclear. But we could have a very much longer time between the Awakening and other events if we use 144 instead of 9.582 [again, as arguably problematic as that is with respect to certain events], so that's why I brought it up.

 

'Also, should there be a difference in that between Noldor and Sindar (or Green Elves at least)?'

 

Good question! Galadriel, for example, would take 3,000 Sun Years to grow to maturity, but had she been born in Middle-earth, 'less' I would think. And I would guess that the rate of the Noldor and Sindar might be equal enough in Middle-earth upon the Great March, but would continue to dwindle in Middle-earth for the Sindar -- be restored to 3,000 in Aman for the Vanyar and Noldor -- but what about the returning Noldor then?

 

Then what happens biggrin

 

Now it may be that I am confusing things, not Tolkien, but if these three texts really connect in this way, then that's part of why I say maybe Tolkien abandoned it later, as being too confusing and variable. In Aman one could simply think of the dates as if they were Sun Years and allow about 20 or 21 'years' for an Elf to mature, but I think things were not so simple as that in the end.

 

And if Laws And Customs stood on its own as a conception, then we would arguably have yet another variant with 3,000 years, as this surely must refer to Sun Years in my opinion.                     



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Date: Sep 12, 2013
(Posting from work... a big crime)
By being "slower" I just meant that a slower-developing organism might have slower reactions, maybe will act and think slower, but never mind that - it doesn't have to be that way.
Some further thoughts...
So it now takes the equivalent of (1500-1050)x144=64,800 years of the Sun between the Awakening and the return of the Noldor. If one is to assume that the dwindling of the time-to-maturity occurs in Middle-earth at a constant rate and regardless of whether or not Melkor is present there, then the most significant drop in this time-to-maturity happens before the Noldor come back, simply because this is a major time interval. The First Age is only about 600 years, which might be too short to contribute to this drop, unless Morgoth's physical presence is a major factor. But in the subsequent Ages it goes away, and the Second and the Third Ages combined are less than 7000 years. So if the major decrease in the time-to-maturity is hypothesized, most of it is to be observed already by the time when the rebels return to Middle-earth. Do we see considerably more generations of Sindar than of Noldor? There are not many examples, but for example Nimloth is either a grand-daughter or a great-granddaughter of Elmo brother of Olwe and Elwe; and Orodreth (in the later tradition) is a great-grandson of Olwe... if that proves or disproves anything...

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Lórellinë

Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
Status: Offline
Posts: 562
Date: Sep 12, 2013

Ahh, thanks for the number... I never did the math myself.

Yes, that's a rather notable period, 64,800 years, for some waning to take place. On the other side of this speculative coin, I do have to wonder why Laws And Customs itself did not at least refer to an earlier period in which the maturity rate was far longer.

If my theory is 'true' that is wink

 

edit: I suppose the detail that for some it took 100 years to reach physical maturity [instead of 50] might be interpreted in this light, that some were still taking longer as the rate generally waned, but this need not be the case.



-- Edited by Galin on Thursday 12th of September 2013 07:17:22 PM

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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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Posts: 383
Date: Sep 13, 2013
My impression is that using 144 Sun years equivalent for 1 Valian year and the time-to-maturity of 3000 (our) years may already be somewhat problematic since the Eldar spend (1500-1115) x144=55,440 in Valinor (before all those sad events) and there is room for ~18 generations, but we are told of nothing like that. There may have been intentions to revise all the history of Aman and we simply don't know.

Now, concerning the dwindling of the time-to-maturity, I tried to see, just for the fun of it, how many generations over 64,800 years are needed to bring down the time-to-maturity from 3000 to 100 years and at what rate of decline. I normally hate to bother people with numbers (Prince George topic was an exception), so I will only post the results. If we assume that the maturation time drops the same number of years in each generation, then there should be 42-43 generations and the magnitude of the drop is ~67-68 (our) years. The problem is that at some point the decline has to stop completely to avoid a negative maturation time.

If the assumption is that in each subsequent generation the maturation time is a certain (constant) percentage of that of the previous generation, it seems that about 74 generations are needed and the percentage is about 95.52% (or 0.9552). This is a quick-and-dirty thing of course and there may be bugs too (if anybody cares, I can send or post the details). But neither of the two scenarios seems to fit what is known, which is however not to say that some major revision could not have been contemplated.

I also wonder how this new idea would work for mixed marriages like Aredhel / Eol or Pengolod's parents.

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Lórellinë

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 383
Date: Sep 15, 2013

I was wondering if a shorter maturation time (if indeed the dwindling of it takes place) is a 'bad' thing - unlike faster aging. It might even compensate this faster aging in a way.

But all in all, the idea of a much longer time scale somehow doesn't sit well with me because it is not easily reconcilable with the well-known events - pity if they were to be totally reconsidered.



-- Edited by Lorelline on Thursday 8th of May 2014 09:44:29 PM

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Lórellinë

Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
Status: Offline
Posts: 2960
Date: Sep 15, 2013

Lorelline,

My friend, please do not feel you have violated any "code" here.
Your posting has been well received and your posting with "math" and discussion of the "mortality rates" of the different races, the discussion of Feanor's oath, and the various motivational issues among his offspring has been very interesting.

One of the truly interesting things that your posting has brought to the surface is the recognition that much of what we enjoy about Tolkien is that much of his work has been "a work in progress" and that from work to work his "evolution" of his magnificent creation has contradiction after contradiction.
I don't believe that your "calculations" have been a waste.  Our Forums thrive on the various interests and discussions that lead us all with our own introspection of Tolkien's work ... sometimes there is a dearth of response ... not because we aren't interested but because we don't want to interrupt the dialogue. 

I hope you will continue to feel comfortable here and respond without reservation of opinion or insight.

Lastly ... with sincerity ... you are most welcome ... and those of us who have not responded to the various topics you have posted does not mean we are not interested in what you have to say ... together we will find topics and gain insights which we will mutually draw us together ...
My "math" often comes up to "1+1 = 3".  but rest assured even if Feanor's twins end up with the same name, we are interested in your thoughts and opinions!
Please hang in there!

Bear



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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit
Called or uncalled, God is present

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 383
Date: Sep 16, 2013
Thanks, Bear, for your encouragement!
I am still thinking of whether those Half-Elven who were not given a choice of a kingdom (and were therefore mortal) could live longer than usual Men. Dior was killed at a relatively young age, of his sons nothing is known, and nothing special is mentioned of the longevity in the line of the Princes of Dol Amroth - other than that Finduilas the wife of Denethor died untimely (even though she had not only Elven but also Numenorean origin). So maybe they were just like other people.
It appears that the longevity depends on the kind of the fea. It is stated that "...the longevity of the Quendi was derived primarily from their fëar, whose nature or 'doom' was to abide in Arda until its end". In Aman, moreover, "the hroar aged only apace with the fëar", therefore no fading; in Middle-earth the fëa consumed the hroa, resulting in fading. (Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, Aman).
So if this is the case, I wonder how Numenoreans were made long-lived; seems their fëar were somehow 'modified'? Most Numenoreans had no Elvish blood in them, and anyway it is not certain that such an admixture improved longevity.
If there indeed had been a change in the fëar of the Numenoreans, it would make sense that once they lost trust in the Valar (this conceivably is a change in the fëa as well) their longevity started to decline. Apparently there was no such waning in the line of the Lords of Andunie.


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Lórellinë

Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
Status: Offline
Posts: 753
Date: Sep 17, 2013
Yeah Lorelline,

Here's my math: 9 Nazgul + 4 hobbits + 2 Men + 1 Elf + 1 Dwarf + 1 Wizard = 1 hell of a story...

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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 383
Date: Sep 17, 2013
Lol, I like this kind of math a whole lot better!

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Lórellinë

 
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