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Topic: The Watcher in the Water

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Rohan peasant - Rank 2
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Date: Jun 10, 2006
The Watcher in the Water

I always asked myself, where teh watcher of the water at the westdoor of Moria has come from and what creature he actually was. But until now I couldn't answer it, so now I ask you: Do you have any idea, what this creature is exactly?



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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: Jun 10, 2006

And it is likely that you won't find the answer.


It is one of those creatures, like Tom Bombadil, Ungoliant and the 'Things that gnaw tunnels deep under moria, that are older than the Ainur (in Arda before the Ainur that is).


I quote:


"We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Glin. Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day. In that despair my enemy was my only hope, and I pursued him, clutching at his heel. Thus he brought me back at last to the secret ways of Khazad-dm: too well he knew them all. Ever up now we went, until we came to the Endless Stair."
(lord of the rings)


 


"There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world."
(the lord of the rings)


 


You see these things Gandalf speaks of are older than Sauron = In arda before Sauron descended as a Maiar from the timless Void. It is likely that the Watcher and Tom bombadil are similar things, though a different variety.


 


They are all enigmas though i have an opinion which is utter speculation.


 


As you know Iluvatar bestowed the Ainur with a theme each. All themes were woven together to create the history of the world along with the Falme Imperishable of Eru.


Now perhaps this theme intentially had anomalies in it, thus those anomelies would be brought to a form in the world that the music was creating. Thus enigma's would exist that are exactly the same age as the world itself and were cuased by irregularities in the music of the Ainur. These irregularities were creatures like Tom bombadil.


 


However Melkor's music was also interwoven, thus creating anomalies as well but becuase his music was different and harsh perhaps the irregularities he wove into the music were 'evil' thus evil enigmas were brought into Ea through his discord of music. Creatures like the Watcher, Ungoliant and these entities that gnaw tunnels deep under the uttermost dwelling of dwarves are the anomalies he interwove.


 



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Glorfindel is indeed correct about the things in Moria and about Tom Bombadil, but there is no real certainty about the Watcher.
of course it is not known if it was a creature of higher intelligence, or maybe a simple animal (like a cow for example)
it could be it was simply a creature similar to a kraken, or perhaps it was intelligent, we don't know

just wanted to add that ungoliant is not in that category
Ungoliant is a Maia that took the form of a giant spider after she entered Arda

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Although I disagreed with him Narguzir did present some good evidence against ungoliant being a Maiar in one of the topics in Strange creatures - it is most definately not conclusive that she is a maiar by any stretch.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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true, but anyway, she could not be a discord of the music as she did after all enter Arda at a certain moment
and if she came from the outside she couldn't be anything else then a Maia

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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However it could be the she only descended from the space outside Ea becuase she escaped from Ea in the first lace? Hence she was created in Ea, escaped and then descended later?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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not likely
it is clearly stated in a quote that the Eldar knew not when she entered Arda

also very important
there is a quote saying she was one of those that Melkor had subdued in the beginning
and in the very beginning there were only Maiar to be drawn on the evil side by Melkor

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Not nessersarily only Maiar were subdued to Melkor though.


It does say that she disowned here master after a while - this is more like what a creature would do rather than a Maiar, faithful to the end.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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not really
at the end of the War of Wrath, Sauron himself felt sorry and apologized and was for a time good.
the problem is we don't have many more examples, as we don't have so much knowledge of the other Maiar that Melkor subdued

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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TM the quote you are refering to is this:


"When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Enw the herald of Manw, and abjured all his evil deeds. And some hold that this was not at first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West. But it was not within the power of Enw to pardon those of his own order, and he commanded Sauron to return to Aman and there receive the judgement of Manw. Then Sauron was ashamed, and he was unwilling to return in humiliation and to receive from the Valar a sentence, it might be, of long servitude in proof of his good faith; for under Morgoth his power had been great. Therefore when Enw departed he hid himself in Middle-earth; and he fell back into evil - (This shows he did come out of evil), for the bonds that Morgoth bad laid upon him were very strong."
(The Silmarillion)


 


He did indeed truly repent, but this did not show rebellion against his master, this showed if anything the opposite - he was dismayed by his masters downfall, for all in Middle-earth thought Morgoth an undefeatable enemy - which he was to the peoples of ME but not to the Valar.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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indeed Maiar showed much devotion, but remember not only they did so
you say that Ungoliant was more likely to be a creature as she did not follow him after a while.
I doubt that there are any other examples of creatures such as orcs, trolls, or any other creature that forsook Melkor, after they had been in his service.
that is why I personally think that Ungoliant was a Maia, and maybe not one as obedient as the Balrogs or as Sauron.
it could be that she was such a powefull Maiar that she could afford to do something like this
it is clear that she was stronger then a balrog, as it took all the balrogs of Melkor to drive her away from her master
that would explain why she did the things she did, like even challanging Melkor when he refused to give her the Silmarils.
I doubt that a simple creature would ever do such a thing.

And I found a quote hat supports Glorfindel's idea of the Watcher beeing very old, perhaps coming from the disturbance in the music.

'What was the thing, or were there many of them? ' 'I do not know,' answered Gandalf, 'but the arms were all guided by one purpose. Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.'
(The Lord of the Rings)

As we see, Gandalf, who is after all very wise, speaks about the Watcher, or maybe Watchers, as of creatures older then Orcs.

We know that the Orcs were created very early after the awakening of the Elves, so it could be that they were there from the creation of Arda.


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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Ungoliant is not stronger than Balrogs TM:


"Now those drakes and worms are the evillest creatures that Melko has made, and the most uncouth, yet of all are they the most powerful, save it be the Balrogs only."
(book of lost tales)


Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel.
(The silmarillion)


There you see by the first quote that Balrogs were the Powerfullest of Melkor's servants not Ungoliant. And by the second we csee that Sauron is also more powerful as Ungoliant has a name.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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do you know what the problem is?
she was not his servant, nor was she ever, except maybe in the beginning
not even when they destroyed the trees she didn't truly serve him
they were parteners, yes, but equal in Ungoliant's view

so your first quote states only that Balrogs are stronger then dragons
the second says that Sauron was stronger then all othe servants, among which Ungoliant is not

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Yes she did serve him if only for a short time:


"The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manw, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness; and she fled to the south, escaping the assaults of the Valar and the hunters of Orom, for their vigilance had ever been to the north, and the south was long unheeded. Thence she had crept towards the light of the Blessed Realm; for she hungered for light and hated it."
(The silmarillion)

You see she was a servant, even if for short time - but I guarantee to you she was included as a servant of Melkor becuase the two quotes i gave are talking about the earliest of Arda history.



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Utlie'n aur! Aiya Eldali ar Atanatri, utlie'n aur!
Auta i lm!
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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Jun 11, 2006
The giant spiders were themselves only the offspring of Ungoliante the primeval devourer of light, that in spider-form assisted the Dark Power, but ultimately quarrelled with him.
(Letter #144)

as you see she only assisted him, never served him

and still, I think that your quotes only reffer to his true servants, those that, like Sauron, did not disown him.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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"disowned her Master"


I think you need to pay closer attention TM. If Melkor was 'Her master' then she WAS his servant for a time - therefore she is counted as a servant.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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ok
here is what I understand from what we all said:

- as long as Ungoliant was a servant of Melkor she was less strong then Sauron
- after she disowned him, she grew in power, as we are told that Melkor himself was a little scared as he saw her, and you can see her power in the fact that she would have defeated Melkor if the Balrogs hadn't come to his rescue

Anyway, the idea is that she was anyway powerfull enough to disown him as a Maia

and even if maybe a Maia stronger then her like sauron didn't disown Melkor, that doesn't mean anything, as Maiar are different, not all the same

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Well i basically agree that she was a Maiar - BUT it is not CONCLUSIVE.


Also it is doubtful she would have defeated Melkor, she may have managed to wrest him of the Silmarils, but he would have destroyed her aftershe devoured them.


Also we have also established that she WAS a servant of melkor so cannot be as powerful as Sauron or Balrogs.


 



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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as I said, maybe not in the beginning
but she was stronger then them when she drank for example the light of the trees, and so she could afford attacking Melkor

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Yes maybe she did exceed the might of the others after drinking the trees - I never thought of that.


BUT however she was never as powerful as Melkor.



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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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I think that one of the quotes needs to be commented on.

"We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Glin. Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day. In that despair my enemy was my only hope, and I pursued him, clutching at his heel. Thus he brought me back at last to the secret ways of Khazad-dm: too well he knew them all. Ever up now we went, until we came to the Endless Stair."

Given what we know, Gandalf's words do not seem accurate. Sauron is one of the Ainur, spawned from the thoughts of Eru presumably. That could be debated if you use the mating of Melian and Thingol as premise for an argument that the Maiar could reproduce with one another. But that seems unlikely since there is no account of the Valar having kids.

It is completely plausible that there are creatures in the depths of Middle-Earth that Sauron knew nothing about, but equally implausible that they were older than Sauron as he would have been present at the creation of the world.




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Soldier of the East - Rank 4
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I agree with TM that Ungliant was a maia.


But, since this thread is about the watcher in the water, all of that was unrelated.


I have no idea what the watcher in the water was. It seems that Tolkien liked to have some mysteries unsolved.



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