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Topic: the concept of death for tolkien

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 14, 2006
the concept of death for tolkien

I think the title says it all.
In a previous thread Narg mentioned the idea of death in Tolkien's writings.
And of course depending on each race the idea of death is of course different.
We all know that Dwarves can "reincarnate", that Men go to an unknown place and that Elves stay in Aman.
But the concept of death is in my opinion much much more complicated.
any good and complex remarks on the topic will be very much appreciated, especially if backed up by quotes.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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I might consider getting a more complex post construucted after but for now I will just point out that when Elves died they did not all stay in Aman. Some, such as Glorfindel went into the halls of Mandos, were reicarnated and when they came out either stayed in Valinor, or in Glorfindels case go to middle-earth (even if he did stay in Valinor for a bit).

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Servants of Mordor - Rank 1
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complex quote on death? er.....

death is an interesting subject. Eru gave it as a gift to men, though it was shunned and feared by them, deeming it a curse. Who can say what death really is? Do not the elves say that it was a mystery?

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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I beleive Narg presented a good quote about the seperation of Hroa from Fea. That is Body from mind. This was Tolkiens Concept of death.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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not only death for men Nessila.
I meant the idea of death for all different races.
for example in the case of the Elves they still always remained linked to Arda.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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As far as i know Dwarves went to a seperate 'Chamber' in the Halls of Mandos until the End of The World and the oncoming of the Second themeto help Aule re-build the world.
Men go through the Halls of Mandos and then leave through the Door of Night to go back with Iluvatar and beyond.
Elves go into the Halls off Mandos and await reincarnation.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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remember that dwarves also have a kind of reincarnation.
they are so called "remade of stone"
there wer after all 7 Durins.

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Servants of Mordor - Rank 1
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huh...interesting

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Gondor civilians - Rank 1
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Well, death is the great unkown of human life. Many writers, even normal peoples (myself included) are greatly intrigued by it, and want to know more about it. In my case, I write about different aspects of death in poetry. I think in Tolkien's writing, he was just experimenting with different ideas about afterlife, maybe wanting to find out which was the most plausible?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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hmmm....no I doubt he was doing that
he created different ideas of death r life after death for each race.
but for Men he could not know what lay beyond.
so he simply created the concept of death as unknown for Men

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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I beleive he says that they pass through the Halls of Mandos and go back to Eru in the timeless Void.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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no...we are never told where they go...
but that Mandos knows where they go, and Manwe also.
and of course Eru

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Where else can there be save back to Iluvatar?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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we don't know...but there was a special place for them

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Hobbits of The Shire - Rank 1
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Many of you have actually posted a topic that is too broad and too blur to explain in a simple manner. Especially as DEATH is the topic no one knows the true answer. Even if we look to a RL situations, religions and culture, DEATH is always something inconsistent, something that is beyond our reach and even if it may appear close to us as it it the everyday thing, it is also very far as it is not visible to us. This is the way the DEATH is consodered in Tolkien mythology also. He did deal with DEATH in many of his works but appart from what he described for elves, dwarves and men, little can be found. And even in those cases, death is not what we look for, the answer is still out there. MAybe the best answers lie in Tolkien's Letters where in different answers he described several aspects of DEATH:


"Elves and Men are just different aspects of the Humane, and represent the problem of Death as seen by a finite but willing and self-conscious person. In this mythological world the Elves and Men are in their incarnate forms kindred, but in the relation of their 'spirits' to the world in time represent different 'experiments', each of which has its own natural trend, and weakness..."


This is a representation of what is death in comparison between elves and men. It shows us how actually those two are just a separate souls of one being as it was firstly announced by Eru. And therefore, although the fate of men is unknown it is closely bounded with the fate of elves, only the two are unaware of that...


So far for now...



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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Great to see you posting Earnur!


However I ponder how could the fate of Men be that similar to Elves, as we know that the latter is bound up with Arda even when slain whereas men go from the World to none but Eru knows. I cannot see how Elves and men have similar fates.
Dwarves have similar fates to Elves as they also wait for reincarnation, but they only get reincarnated at the End of the World I believe when Aule has to rebuild Arda.



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Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!

Hobbits of The Shire - Rank 1
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Well, Glorfindel, these are not my words but the words of Tolkien himself. He tried to describe in many ways how the system of life after death actually works, but some fragments were left out. And this one is the part as it describes the relation between men and elves. it is said that the elves are bounded with Arda forever, although Valinor is unseen from the visible world and thus cannot be considered the Arda itself. While men are an enigma. We don't know where they are going. They might even be a part of the Arda after death and return the earth from which they will arise once again. Or maybe they are reincarnated into some other race. Therefore it is really difficult and unclear to discuss elves and men as different...

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I am Earnur the lost...
Valar
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I would like to bring up, besides actual physical death in Tolkien, I think we have a mental or an emotional death.


In all ways besides literally dying, Frodo was 'dead' because of his quest to destroy the Ring.  The Ring was able to gain complete control over Frodo, and Frodo was sucked out of all physical and mental strength, to where the Ring just took control and he claimed it as his own.  Then after the Ring's destruction we see a much different Frodo.


”No taste of food, no feel of water, no sound of wind, no memory of tree or grass or flower, no image of moon or star are left to me. I am naked in the dark, Sam, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire. I begin to see it even with my waking eyes, and all else fades.”~Mount Doom


Frodo is unable to remember anything except himself in the ring.  He is 'completely naked' there is absolutely nothing left except the Ring, himself, and darkness.  Tolkien brings up a little bit about the memory.  What I mean is that we are told Gollum still had a 'small corner of his mind' that was not corrupted by the Ring yet.  And that was the redeeming chance that he had, he still had this 'small corner' of his mind left, where he could remember his name, Smeagol, and a bit about his past life before coming across the Ring.  What's most important is the fact that he could still remember his name.  Compare that to the Mouth of Sauron who has completely forgotten his name entirely.  The Mouth was completely enthralled to Sauron's services, so anything of his past life, even his own name, he could not remember, he was under total dominion of Sauron.  Where in Gollum's case, he still had a little hope left of being redeemed because of that 'small corner' and the remembrance of his name.


What's happening to Frodo in the quote above, is he's starting to totally lose himself, and any sense of memory, he's forgotten the 'taste of food, the feel of water...etc' and all he can see is himself, the Ring, and darkness all about.


Then when Frodo gets into the Sammath Naur:


The suddenly as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice.

"Begone and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom."~Mount Doom



Tolkien again uses 'wheel of fire' here to talk about the Ring.  And out of the fire (The Ring) came the words below it.  What's interesting here is that the Ring makes Frodo utter these words of 'begone' and 'cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'  Now why would the Ring want Frodo to do this?  Why would the Ring want Frodo to take it to Mount Doom and 'begone' of it?  I think the answer lies here:


At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum - impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist,...~Letter 246


The Ring's maximum point of influence is at that 'last moment' in Sammath Naur, that's where the pressure of the Ring is at it's greatest.  So, in order for the Ring to achieve it's goal, get Frodo to claim the Ring, and therefor Sauron could get it back, because Frodo would have been no match, the Ring needed to get Frodo to the Sammath Naur.  This is where the Ring's pressure would be greatest and Frodo would claim the Ring as his own, and the Ring's goal (Or Sauron's goal) could be accomplished.  Too bad for the Ring that it did not intend for Eru and providence to step in and destroy it.


Then Letter 246 goes on to say...


certainly after long possession, months of increasing torment, and when starved and exhausted. Frodo had done what he could and spent himself completely..


Frodo had been completely drained of all physical and mental strength and he completely fell to the control of the Ring.  To the very point where Frodo had been 'untouchable by pity' (Pity the very quality Frodo is known best for), and to where he was completely enthralled to the Ring.


Where I'm going with all this is on the journey, Frodo does not die, he does not suffer a physical death.  But he dies in other means, and there is more to death in LOTR than just a physical death.  I think we also have an emotional death.  Frodo may not be physically dead, but he is completely spent.  And reading through the Scouring of the Shire, I just get a sense of no emotion in Frodo, he really doesn't do anything, he's just kind of there up until he has to depart to Valinor to try to get any sort of healing from the scarring left over by the Ring.


Could we also say that servants of Sauron have an 'emotional death'...specifically the Mouth of Sauron?  The Mouth of Sauron does nothing, and remembers nothing about his life before entering into Sauron's service.  So does he not die 'emotionally' the way that Frodo did?  How about the Nazgul?



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I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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An interesting post there.


I would not say that Frodo or even Gollum sufferered emotional death entierly as Gollum for example remembered and was sometimes comforted when he thought about his past life when he was 'normal'. If either of them suffered emotional death entirely I cannot see how frodo for instance could regain his former self after the Ring.


The Nazgul and Mouth of Sauron are the same thing. The Nazgul were once men who once ensnared by the Ring were utterly enslaved to the Will of the Ring. So therefore there existing wills perished and the new will of the Ring took there place.


The Mouth of Sauron is exactly the same except his will was not taken over by the Ring but by Sauron himself.
Therefore I would say both of them, perhaps the Nazgul more, suffered death by the destruction of the Fea whilst the hroar continued to survive under dominion of another.



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Soldier of Beleriand - Rank 3
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I know this thread is quite old, but I had something to say. The Ainulindalë is my favorite passage of any book, and I only wish Tolkien had written more about it.

Beyond what concepts of death Tolkien discusses in his works, you can infer a lot about the general nature and source of his creation myth. That's what it is - every culture has a creation myth, and Tolkien is no different. He was a devout Catholic, and immensely interested in Norse mythology, and other legends/concepts of Scandinavian lore. I'm afraid I can't really back up much of what I'm theorizing with quotes, because I want to first look at where Tolkien (who is influenced and shaped like any of us) developed these ideas.

It is curious that although he was Catholic, more of his creation myth seems to be drawn from other religions. The prevalent concept of the immortality of souls which are often sent back to Ea to improve or fulfill something is drawn from Hinduism. Reincarnation is also a precept of Eastern religions. More of the closer details, such as the idea of multiple gods of limited power, and the mighty and overblown nature of them, not to mention their names...Aulë, Manwë, etc stem from Norse mythology, which he loved dearly. From his own Catholicism comes the concept of one God of omnipotent knowledge and goodwill, and the idea of a purgatory (Halls of Mandos, anyone?). Then we have still other creatures like wraiths, demons, creatures who have characteristics of fairies, sprites, or imps - influences from Celtic and pagan sources. Curses and various dark magic are very reminiscent of African folklore - especially those concerning the Oathbreakers and distantly, the Barrow-wights.

Yet from still different belief systems springs the idea of lesser gods of various rankings and levels of wisdom. Only Ilúvatar seems immune to mistakes and corruption, as in Christianity. The Ainur can be corrupted and do horrible things, as Melkor was, or they can make mistakes, as Aulë did in the creation of Dwarves.

Yet we see that Ilúvatar is a compassionate and merciful God, giving Melkor three chances before taking any action against him, when first he began to cause trouble. He asserts his position as the one Creator God, the only being able to dictate the ultimate happenings of the Universe:

Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself has not imagined.

I consider Tolkien ahead of his time, because there were not many folk in the 1930s who were brave enough to include the great variety of cultural and religious influences that he did. I'm a bit of a theology buff, so you may find this a bit boring, but I could go on for pages.

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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Feel free to go on for pages. I started a thread on the Tolkien Mythos just for that purpose.

I've been avoiding this thread simply because I think Tolkien was pretty clear about his concept of death. Its unknown to all but God as far as the fate of men is concerned. I am fairly confident that he held to the traditional beliefs of Catholicism in regards to an afterlife.

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
 
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