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Topic: Finding Rivendell

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: May 5, 2006
Finding Rivendell

Rivendell is known as the hidden valley. However I am confused by this. Exactly how is it hidden - by Elven enchantment? - if so how would anyone hope to find it amidst the endless miles of steadily rising flat where it is located?

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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Date: May 7, 2006
It's hidden because of its geographical location. The sides of the valley are so steep, that you can't tell that it's there until you're practically right on top of it. Gandalf's own horse nearly stumbles down over the side of it in The Hobbit.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Well then that must mean that an enemy has as much chance of finding it as a foe. I would have thought that the Elves would have had some kind on concealment charm on it?

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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The Elves weren't magical in that they had charms or enchantments like that. They had inherent power, as did the rest of the beings in Arda, but theirs was just greater than that of Men or Dwarves, for example, and so they seemed "magical".

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Now this may be limited to the films but did the Elves in Lorien give the hobbits cloaks which stealthed  them? And what about Sams rope which came down from the top of a rock where it was tied?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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it wasn't magic...it was technique. Many things that were normal or maybe advanced in ME could be considered magic now on Earth. Think of the chameleon. I think the fabric that the cloaks has, was capable to reflect light in a certain way that it made it look like the environment near it. As for the rope, maybe the Galadhrim also had some special method of making it.

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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The Elven cloaks that the Fellowship received from the Galadhrim were not particularly "magical" as one would think of it. They were most likely like today's camoflauge in that they were able to blend into their surroundings, and the material out of which they were fashioned made it so that they were able to blend into numerous backgrounds.


As for the rope, I don't have an explanation. It was Elven rope, and therefore not like ordinary rope, but I would not call it "magical" in any case.



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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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I believe enchantment would be a better word than Magical. Or extraordinary abilities?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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maybe simply advanced technology.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Don't let Tolkien hear you say that 'The might'!

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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Date: May 7, 2006

Yeah, definately not technology.


Though enchantment could, possibly, work since I believe that the Girdle of Melian was said to be an enchantment a few times. Though I can't remember 100%.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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not in the common sense of technology, but in the sense of mabye some special fabric, like the cloaks that could blend itself.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Perhaps a 'Elvish twist of reality' would be a better phrase than any?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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twist of reality?
in what way?
I don't really understand

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Well Finding Rivendell in a deep Valley would be quite hard enough. Perhaps the Elves 'Twisted that reality' even more so making it so extremely difficult to find. I assume that is what Glorfindel means anyhow.

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Elves of the Third Age - Rank 1
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You are right Narguzir, the girdle of Melian was called an enchantment. In fact in The Silmarillion Tolkien says, in Of Beren and Luthien, that the waste that Beren travelled through was where 'the power of Sauron and the enchanment of Melian met. (I am just para-phrasing as I do not have my book with me! So please don't hold this as gospel! But I am fairly certain that is correct)

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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still, Elrond is not a Maia, and I personally believe that Rivendell depended on some "magic"
for example think of Lorien
they knew immediately when someone approached their lands...and I believe it was the same with the Elves of Rivendell
they surely had some guards watching the entrance to the valley, and perhaps the way to the Great Pass in the mountains...to make sure they knew who came
people like Gandalf would be let in, but any enemies would probably be killed or cpatured until they found the position of the valley

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Elf of Rivendell - Rank 2
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Date: Aug 24, 2006
but wasn't the river in rivendell enchanted?

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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Date: Aug 25, 2006
This thread is crossing into a discussion of magic in Tolkien's world. Magic and enchantment are the best words Men have to describe the nature of the Elves and the Ainur and that is probably correct from a human point of view.

Besides the 'magic' of the Elves in Rivendell, Elrond did possess one of the three elven rings of power. Tolkien is kind enough to leave the powers of the rings almost completely ambiguous.




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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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you mean Bruinen?
the tiver itself wasn't enchanted, it was the power of Elrond and Gandalf that made the water grow into a flood and destroy the Nazgul...actually it was Gandalf that added those horse figures in the front of the waves...unfortunately in the movie Arwen is doing it all
as for Celethil's remark, I will only add the rings were used to maintain. if maintaining the land means beeing able to turn a small river into a flood then I guess it was the ring...

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