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Topic: Perhaps not so stupid

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: Apr 30, 2006
Perhaps not so stupid

Although it may have sounded a stupid Idear why couldn't Frodo with some companions have flown to mt doom by eagles to dispose of the ring?

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Elf of Rivendell - Rank 2
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Date: Apr 30, 2006

Have you taken this idea from ''How Lord of The Rings should've ended''?


Anyway id say because Sauron was patrolling, there were like over 20 thousand orcs then in Mordor and i bet that Sauron also had the dragons that the Nazgul flew on long before he gave them to the Nazgul...And for what I think i'd say after their meeting ''with the river'' they returned to Mordor and would've actually made it there before the eagles with Frodo and others...This is my idea why not..



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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Well I heard of the idear in a topic below and it did not actually sound stupid in my eyes. I mean there are only 9 nazgul to patrol the entire of Modor air ways at least. It would not be difficult for an eagle to get that close to mt doom.


Also I would just point out that the Nazgul did not ride dragons. They rode 'fell beasts' which do not have names and they do not breath fire, nor are as mighty as Dragons which only dwell far in the northern wastes in the Third age.



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Elf of Rivendell - Rank 2
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I put dragon because i didnt remember their real names

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Olorin/Gandalf ;)
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Because the lotr would be a boring book.
No matter what people might say about eagles not beeing able to fly so low or maybe that the ring could not be thrown from far away, I am sure that with a hobbit throwing it (please read the intoduction of lotr about hobbits) it would surely go inside the volcano.
Simply, Tolkien wouldn't have a book anymore.

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Valar
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To add some more reasons.  Tolkien didn't want to use the Eagles as a sort of taxi service.  He says they are a Deus Ex Machina (which is latin for "God of the Machine").  It's a plot device used by authors to have some sort of supernatural beings (or even God himself) to get involve to solve a situation.  Tolkien because of this wanted to use them sparingly.


Also, they are creatures of Manwe and listen to Manwe alone.  Gwaihir helped out Gandalf, because they had a long friendship, and the Eagles have to agree to do such a thing.  No one can't just say hear take the, Ring with Frodo, to Mount Doom, and they do it.  They have to agree to do something, and if they don't want to, they don't have to.


There is always the threat that an eagle could get shot down.  The Eagles don't like going around Men because as we are told in The Hobbit the Eagles avoid Men, because Men like to shoot at them.  Sauron would have alarms go off if Eagles are coming right into Mordor and they would not only have to deal with the Nazgul but also shot down.


And what TM said in that it just wouldn't make a good story.



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I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Yes but the eagles would fly above the hight of mt doom, far too high for arrows to reach at all. Also Gandalf helped the eagle lord out by saving his life from an arrow wound. I am pretty sure that they would be prepared to take the risk of losing an eagle if it menant forfilling there debt to Gandalf and saving ME. Also Gandalf is a maiar remember, the eagles would listen to him more than anyone else in ME.


The only statment I can agree with is that it would not have made a very good story but the fact remains there was an easier option for the fellowship to take.



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Elf of Rivendell - Rank 2
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They had a debt to Gandalf yes..But dont forget they saved him from Orthnac

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Proving my point the moreso. If the eagles would be prepared to fly as low over an evil dwelling as Isengard I am sure they would have done the same over mt doom, obviously much higher.

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Elf of Rivendell - Rank 2
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My sentence had another point aswell. To me they had already payed their debt to Gandalf by saving him..I think the only reason they came to attack the Nazguls in the final battle was because either Radagast sent them or they knew that this fight was going to decide to future of ME.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Would Radagast have control over the Eagles of Manwe??? I doubt they would take orders from him.

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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He may not have had direct control over the eagles, but they did at least serve as messengers for Radagast.  The main reason for Gwaihir coming to Orthanc in the first place was to give a message from Radagast to Gandalf and Saruman.


This also serves are a reason why Gwaihir would fly so low to Orthanc, since he did not know that it was an evil place at the time.  He was bearing news to Saruman and Gandalf, and certainly wouldn't have done so if he had known Saruman's descent into evil.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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I thinkyou are very wrong here Elendil
the eagles were not cowardly nor afraid, and they would go to mt doom or rescue Gandalf even if he (Gwaihir) knew that Orthanc was a place of evil.
Why else would they have saved the 13 companions in the hobbit or why would they have ever come to the battle of the 5 armies.
if they were afraid of death, or not interested they wouldn't have come.

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Valar
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Yes but the eagles would fly above the hight of mt doom, far too high for arrows to reach at all.~mos
It is made clear in The Hobbit that the Eagles could be shot at:
The Lord of Eagles would not take them anywhere near where men lived.  "They would shoot at us with their bows of yew," he said, "for they would think we were after their sheep.  And at other times they would be right.  No! we are glad to cheat the goblins of their sport, and glad to repay our thanks to you, but we will not risk ourselves for dwarves in the southward plains."~Out of the Frying Pan
Even if they could fly high out of bow shot they'd have to come down eventually...they do get tired.


Also Gandalf helped the eagle lord out by saving his life from an arrow wound. I am pretty sure that they would be prepared to take the risk of losing an eagle if it menant forfilling there debt to Gandalf and saving ME.~mos
Gwaihir had already paid Gandalf back for his deed in healing him from a poisoned arrow.  As the quote above says "glad to repay our thanks to you.."  As in the paragraph before it talked about Gandalf healing the Lord of the Eagles from a poisoned arrow.  Everything else Gwaihir did for Gandalf was out of their long friendship.


Also Tolkien's thoughts on Eagles:
The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine'. I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness.~Letter 210


Glorfindel, as Elendil said Radagast had used the Eagles and other birds as messengers.  Gwaihir did not know Gandalf was imprisoned on Orthanc, he was sent to get messages, when Gwaihir saves Gandalf, that is by Gwaihir's own will.  However, the Eagles were creatures of Manwe, and seeing as the Valar have been more "hands off," it only goes to show further that the Eagles would not get involved in destroying the Ring.



-- Edited by Boromir88 at 11:52, 2006-05-02

-- Edited by Boromir88 at 11:54, 2006-05-02

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I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Your quotes don't clear the situation at all.
Of course the eagles wouldn't fly where men lived, mostly because there was no need. And indeed, even if they owed Gandalf to save him, they didn't only do it because of that.
Here is a quote from the very same chapter:
"Eagles are not kindly birds. Some are cowardly and cruel. But the ancient race of the northern mountains were the greatest of all birds; they were proud and strong and noble-hearted. They did not love goblins, or fear them. When they took any notice of them at all (which was seldom, for they did not eat such creatures ), they swooped on them and drove them shrieking back to their caves, and stopped whatever wickedness they were doing. The goblins hated the eagles and feared them, but could not reach their lofty seats, or drive them from the mountains."
As you see the eagles always stopped the goblins, not only when Gandalf was there.
So I believe what you said isn't very true.
Also, why are you not trying to answer why the eagles went to the battle of the five armies? They didn't owe Gandalf anything, anymore, so why did they risk their lives?
It was because they were proud and brave, and willing to risk their lives to stop any evil that was going on.
Indeed, not eagles were like this, but those that we speak about were like this.
The eagles didn't go where men lived, not because they were cowardly, but because there was no point to risk.
There was a point to risk to save ME, but not a point to risk beeing shot.


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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Valar
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The quote made it clear that the eagles would not take them to where men lived because they would be shot at.  So, obviously Eagles can be shot (and fear being shot at), if they fly into Mordor.


And above all, I think Tolkien's quote in Letters sums up why the Eagles wouldn't take the Ring to Mount Doom.  They were a "dangerous machine" referring to the latin phrase Deus Ex Machina, and he only wanted to use them sparingly.  Such an epic quest and burden of the Ring, the Eagles would not have wanted to do.  They may come in an help (and they did), but they were not a taxi service, that would just take people wherever they wanted.


As you see the eagles always stopped the goblins, not only when Gandalf was there.~TM
I never said they only show up when Gandalf is around, now you are just putting words in my mouth. All I remarked was to the comment that Gwaihir was paying Gandalf back, and just pointing out that they already did pay him back.


Also, why are you not trying to answer why the eagles went to the battle of the five armies? They didn't owe Gandalf anything, anymore, so why did they risk their lives?~TM


Whatever else the Eagles do is by their own decision. No one on Middle-earth can command them, or tell them what to do.


It was because they were proud and brave, and willing to risk their lives to stop any evil that was going on.~TM
No your quote talks about their hatred towards goblins and if they come across goblins then they scare them away back into their caves, stopping them from whatever wickedness they were doing.  Nothing about them risking their lives to stop evil.


I fail to see how your quote disproves anything I have said.  Your quote talks about Eagles being proud, ancient, and a hatred towards Goblins.  That has nothing to do with my post before.



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I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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of course none in middle-earth can command them, and I doubt thaz anyone in middle-earth should command them for them to bring the ring into Mordor.
they would go on their own, just as they did in the battle of the 5 armies, and just as they did by helping the Host of the West.
you say they would be afraid of beeing shot at in Mordor.
frankly, I think that attacking the Nazgul and the whole Host of Mordor in front of the Black Gate was a hundred times more dangerous then risky then flying into Mordor, especially at the time when almost the whole plain of Gorgoroth was empty.


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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Elves of the Third Age - Rank 1
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i think that they might have fought against the forces of mordor even if gandalf did not ask them to come, because they disliked the fell beasts/nazgul, they would have turned up by their own free will, to defend their kingdom which could be taken over by sauron. They considered that if sauron did obtain the ring then their homelands might be under threat so they would have to not necessarilly unite against sauron with aragorn and gandalf, but fight alongside them to ensure the safety of their homelands.
They probably were not bothered if the ring was kept away from mordor, or was destroyed permanently, its just when the ring began to get close to sauron it alarmed them into taking action, which they would not have done earlier, because it was not seen as a real threat yet.

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Valar
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frankly, I think that attacking the Nazgul and the whole Host of Mordor in front of the Black Gate was a hundred times more dangerous then risky then flying into Mordor~TM


You make a valuable point, and obviously one I didn't see before.  I still don't think that the Eagles would wish to bear Frodo, to Mount Doom, or would agree to destroy the ring.  But, that is a good point, and I agree.



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I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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ok, I think we are getting to a common agreement.
ok, I'll put it this way then. I think if the Host of the West made a diversion in front of the Black Gate (just as they did to give Frodo a better chance) the Eagles would agree to fly into Mordor, across the by then empty Plain of Gorgoroth and throw the ring into Mount Doom.
Perhaps the Eagles never realised the immediate neccesity to destroy the ring, and only in the very last moment (as in the battle of the 5 armies or before the black gate) they came to rescue the situation. maybe if the great danger of the situation would be shown, they would agree to fly with the help of a diversion and bring the ring.

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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Ugh, this question again?


The answer here is not within the story, but without. It lies in Tolkien's own mind and the way in which he wanted his story to unfold.


To put it in the simplest terms, the Eagles didn't fly Frodo to Mt. Doom and so that he could throw the Ring in because Tolkien didn't want that to happen. He did not want to rely on the Eagles to do everything since that would take away from the heroic feeling within The Lord of the Rings. The Eagles were meant to be used as machines (ie: direct intervention from a greater power), as Boromir has already pointed out, and only in the uttmost need. Notice when they come into use:


1) Saving Gandalf, Thorin and Co. from the Goblins
2) Turning the tide in the Battle of the Five Armies
3) Saving Gandalf from Orthanc
4) Taking Gandalf down from Zirak-Zigil
5) Battle of the Morannon


Each time the Eagles come into the story, it is for a very influential reason, and this is exactly why Tolkien did not want to use them to carry Frodo or the Ring to Mount Doom. All of this speculation whether or not the Eagles would do it, or whether they would make it without being shot down, is irrelevant since Tolkien would not have even considered that situation.


So yeah, quick and simple answer: because there would be no story.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Indeed, just as I first said.
He simply didn't want it.
And I think there are many other ideas that are for some people better then the ideas in the book, but we must accept the truth.
Still, Narguzir, I don't think it is irrelevant.
We all know that Tolkien didn't want to use them, that is clear. But another question is:
But if he would have wanted to use them, would they have made it?
And personally, I would say yes to that question.

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Servants of Mordor - Rank 1
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the eagles of Mandos weren't play things, servants to men and hobbits to come and go when called for and sent. It was an honor that they would rescue someone, and even Gandalf paid Thoronder (sp) respect and gratefulness

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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Eagles of Manwë.



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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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I would like to add this quote further enforcing that Eagles were not Taxis in Tolkiens mind:


"The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine'. I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness. The alighting of a Great Eagle of the Misty Mountains in the Shire is absurd; it also makes the later capture of G. by Saruman incredible, and spoils the account of his escape. (One of Z's chief faults is his tendency to anticipate scenes or devices used later, thereby flattening the tale out.) Radagast is not an Eagle-name, but a wizard's name; several eagle-names are supplied in the book. These points are to me important."


210 From a letter to Forrest J. Ackerman [Not dated; June 1958]


 


I think we have our final answer here. There would be no point to the book if Eagles could just drop the ring into  MT doom even if it is relatively feasible.



-- Edited by Glorfindel1235 at 09:41, 2006-05-17

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 17, 2006
again I don't see why you don't read the other posts beofre posting, your quote has already been discussed above.
Boromir88 made a good point about that same quote, but still agreed that the eagles were not cowardly.
the idea is they could have been used.
they helped in several battles and risked their lives, so they would have done the job of carrying the ring.
they didn't do it because Tolkien simply didn't want to use them and because he would have had no story.

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
 
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