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Topic: Pelori

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: Apr 25, 2006
Pelori

Why did the Valar raise the Pelori in the semi circle fasion, excluding them from north and south Valinor. Why not raise them all along the coast so that the whole continent was protected rather than leaving Araman and avarthar (???) all open?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Apr 25, 2006
I'll try to explain as good as I can
"for its west shores looked upon the Outer Sea, that is called by the Elves Ekkaia, encircling the Kingdom of Arda. How wide is that sea none know but the Valar; and beyond it are the Walls of the Night. But the east shores of Aman were the uttermost end of Belegaer, the Great Sea at the West; and since Melkor was returned to Middle-earth and they could not yet overcome him, the Valar fortified their dwelling, and upon the shores of the sea they raised the Pelóri, the Mountains of Aman, highest upon Earth."
As we see from this quote, the western shore was not endangered by Melkor. This is wa because the Valar would have seen melkor if he came from the West, and if he was seen he could not run away anywhere, as in that direction were only the Walls of the Night.
So this could explain why the west was without defence.
But why the regions of Araman and Avathar were created, I have no idea. Probably because it was made up to fit the story with Ungoliant.
"There the Valar were not vigilant; for west of the Pelóri was an empty land in twilight, and eastward the mountains looked out, save for forgotten Avathar, only upon the dim waters of the pathless sea. But now upon the mountain-top dark Ungoliant lay..."
Again, we can see that the Valar were not vigillant, because they simply felt safe enough.
Maybe in this case we could say that the Valar were overconfident, but all was because they had no idea Ungoliant lived there, and that she could help Melkor get over the mountains.
"...at that time they fortified their land anew, and they raised up the mountain-walls of the Pelóri to sheer and dreadful heights, east, north, and south. Their outer sides were dark and smooth, without foothold or ledge, and they fell in great precipices with faces hard as glass, and rose up to towers with crowns of white ice. A sleepless watch was set upon them, and no pass led through them, save only at the Calacirya: but that pass the Valar did not close, because of the Eldar that were faithful, and in the city of Tirion upon the green hill Finarfin yet ruled the remnant of the Noldor in the deep cleft of the mountains."
As we can see, after the Noldor left, the Valar decided to never let their first mistake happen again, so they again raised the Pelori, this time even higher.
So as we can see, the west was agin left unprotected, and considering the fact the Valar this time made sure no problems would appear, I am sure that a threat from the west was not possible, and that it would have probably been seen until it could have reached Valinor.
So in conclusion, the first time the Pelori were raised, it was simply the overconfidence of the Valar that made them feel very safe and be sure that nothing could ever happen.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: May 26, 2006
Perhaps a more direct answer to your query Glorfindel was that they raised the Pelori in the same fasion, only opposite, to the Walls of Sun mountain chain in the Gates of Morning in the east.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 27, 2006
The Walls of Sun had nothing to do with protecting anything so I don't really see why they would have anything really to do with the Pelori

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: May 27, 2006
I cannot find the exact quote mos111 is refering to but I know of it. It says that the Pelori were raised in unison with the Walls of Sun in the far east. This may not have been why they were raised but it explains why they were rased in the semicircle fasion which does not guard all of Aman.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: Jun 9, 2006

Here is the quote:


"In the East of  the world  are the  Walls of  the Sun,  which is a   great   mountain   range   symmetrically   answering   the  Moun-tains of  Valinor  in  the  West,  as  shown  on  map  IV.   Of  this  range  there  is  no  mention  in  the  Lost  Tales,  where  almost all  that is  said  of  the  East  is  contained  in  Orome's words  to the  In   the  East   beyond  the   tumbled  lands   there  is   a  silent beach  and  a  dark  and empty  sea'  (I.  214); in  the East  also was the great  mountain  Kalorme  (I.  212),  and  there  Aule  and  Ulmo 'builded  great  havens  [of  the  Sun  and  Moon] beside  the sound- less  sea'  (I.  215).  In   the  Ambarkanta   the  Gates   of  Morn, through  which  the  Sun  returns  from  the Outer  Dark in  the Lost Tales, have disappeared."
(the Shaping of Middle-earth)



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Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!

Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Jun 9, 2006
well, the Sun returned there before the rounding of the Arda
anyway good quote there

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: Jun 10, 2006
The Might wrote:


well, the Sun returned there before the rounding of the Arda

I just ponder what you mean TM?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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before the rounding of Arda the sun did not spin around the world, because the world was flat
it simply disappeared below the earth somewhere west of Valinor, crossed below the earth (again imagine it flat) and then came up again in the East.
However after the rounding of Arda, the sun could not rise from below Arda anymore, because the world was a sphere, not flat

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: Jun 10, 2006
The world was made round at the fall of Numenore.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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yes, that is indeed true.
still I wonder why Tolkien chose a geocentrical, instead of a heliocentrical system

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: Jun 10, 2006
Meaning?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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what do you mean by "Meaning?"

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: Jun 10, 2006
The Might wrote:


still I wonder why Tolkien chose a geocentrical, instead of a heliocentrical system

What exactly do you mean by those words?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Jun 10, 2006
a geocenrical system is a system of the universe that has the world (in this case Arda as its middle point)
that means the sun goes around Arda
this type of system was for the first time presented by Ptholemeus.
a heliocentrical system of the universe has the Sun in the middle
and it was first presented by Kopernikus
and in this case the Earth spins around the Sun

but Tolkien chose the geocentrical system, thus putting Arda in the middle of the universe
but since he himself says that Arda was thought to be the Earth in a much earlier time, I thought it would be logical that Arda would spin around the Sun

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: Jun 10, 2006
The basic difference between the round and flat in Tolkien's myth was that from the Void you could see Ambar.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Jun 10, 2006
no I mean why didn't Arda spin around the Sun, and why did Arien spin around Arda instead?
makes no sense if he wants to say Arda is like our Earth

or maybe a geocentrical system is good to show Arda was much more important

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: Jun 10, 2006
Do you posees 'The atlas of Tolkien's Middle-earth' by Karen fydd fonstad (sp)?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Jun 10, 2006
nope

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: Jun 10, 2006
Well you really ought to invest in it. You could probably get it for around 18 euros and you will really learn some interesting geography - espeically about maps of the entire of arda in different ages, numenor, and even a bit about the Lands of sun and the Dark south land as well as dozens of maps on middle-earth and valinor, and then more local maps of the Shire, Rohan, Erebor, even down to the scale of the kings court in minas tirith!

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Jun 10, 2006
well, that is an interesting idea
I might consider it
as long as the maps are made by tolkien and not by other fanatics

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: Jun 10, 2006
The maps are obviosuly drawn by Karen but she is a noted Chartogrphist and has based the maps on evidence presented by Tolkien. The maps are not directly drawn by him as there are hundreds in there, but amoung the Tolkien community you won't get a better atlas TM. The detail is great.

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Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!

 
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