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Topic: Drums in the Deep

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Valar
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Posts: 148
Date: Apr 19, 2006
Drums in the Deep

What was that, by the way, was it the Balrog being noisy, or the orcs drumming war-ishly, for whatever reason? I can't recall... Well, anyway, I mainly wanted to ask: Gandalf mentions some dark creatures when he goes down with the Balrog into the deepest depths of Moria, does anybody know what they were? Or, if they don’t, do they have any strong ideas? I don’t think it’s answered properly in LoTR or the Silm - I could be wrong though of course ; )



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I am Yavanna, Giver of Fruits.
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Posts: 3118
Date: Apr 19, 2006
"The end comes, and then drums, drums in the deep. I wonder what that means. The last thing written is in a trailing scrawl of elf-letters: they are coming. There is nothing more."
As you can see also Gandalf was wondering what that meant at the time. But the answer is simple.
Here are a few quotes where this drums are presented, and from all these quotes it seems that the Orcs where those that were beating the drums.
"Gandalf had hardly spoken these words, when there came a great noise: a rolling Boom that seemed to come from depths far below, and to tremble in the stone at their feet. They sprang towards the door in alarm. Doom, doom it rolled again, as if huge hands were turning the very caverns of Moria into a vast drum. Then there came an echoing blast: a great horn was blown in the hall, and answering horns and harsh cries were heard further off. There was a hurrying sound of many feet."
"Doom, doom came the drum-beat and the walls shook."
"There was a rush of hoarse laughter, like the fall of sliding stones into a pit; amid the clamour a deep voice was raised in command. Doom, boom, doom went the drums in the deep."
"Every now and again the drum-beats throbbed and rolled: doom, doom.
Suddenly at the top of the stair there was a stab of white light. Then there was a dull rumble and a heavy thud. The drum-beats broke out wildly: doom-boom, doom-boom, and then stopped."
The only moment where you can become uncertain is this quote, spoken right after Gandalf first eencountered the magic of the Balrog:
Gimli took his arm and helped him down to a seat on the step. `What happened away up there at the door? ' he asked. `Did you meet the beater of the drums? '
'I do not know,' answered Gandalf. `But I found myself suddenly faced by something that I have not met before.
I could think of nothing to do but to try and put a shutting-spell on the door. I know many; but to do things of that kind rightly requires time, and even then the door can be broken by strength.
But then comes the simple answer, a quote after the Balrog fell together with Gandalf:
"Along this they fled. Frodo heard Sam at his side weeping, and then he found that he himself was weeping as he ran. Doom, doom, doom the drum-beats rolled behind, mournful now and slow; doom!"
"They looked back. Dark yawned the archway of the Gates under the mountain-shadow. Faint and far beneath the earth rolled the slow drum-beats: doom. A thin black smoke trailed out. Nothing else was to be seen; the dale all around was empty. Doom. Grief at last wholly overcame them, and they wept long: some standing and silent, some cast upon the ground. Doom, doom. The drum-beats faded."
As you can see the drum beats continued after the Balrog fell so it could not have been him, clearly these were the Orcs.

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Yes, I believe it was quite simply the Goblins letting know there resence to there uninvited guests. They simply wanted to intimidate them and the rolling drums were clearly a success.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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intimidate? I would rather say they wanted to demoralise their opponents and make them afraid.

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Gondor civilian - Rank 1
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Date: May 3, 2006
Maybe it was just a their habit when leaving to battle? If there's anything similar to our world and it's history, most armies do have their drummers who are beating drums or something like that to keep the fighting spirit up. Just like in book when Orc army was closening to Minas Tirith, there was drummers and they didn't seem to do much else.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 3, 2006
oh yes, that is true. Evne though these were of course different orcs, with some differences from the others, I think that wolf is right and it was a common feature and a habit that orcs even from different regions did.
And as I said, I think it didn't have so much with keeping the fighting spirit, but more with intimidating the adversary. When for example in KD you keep hearing some big drums in the dark tunnels, your moral and concentration will definitely decrease.

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Valar
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Date: May 15, 2006
Ah, good, I had similar theories, I wanted to ask some well-knowledged people. Any replies to the second question? It wasn't just orcs/goblins/similar, I'm pretty sure, or he would have called them that.

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I am Yavanna, Giver of Fruits.
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 15, 2006
oh, you mean the nameless things
well, we know nothing about them
the only thing we know is this quote:
“Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day.”
We know that whatever they are, these creatures built tunnels far beneath Moria, so it could be a race of creatures that tunneled beneath the earth.
There is no more info, all is speculation.
For example, you could associate them with yet another totally unkown creatures, the worms in the great desert, and some would think of Frank Herbert's Dune and the worms on Arrakis.
But unfortunately, we know absolutely nothing about them...
very strange is the fact that Gandalf calls them older then Sauron.
as a Maia Sauron was created in the very beginning, so we must assume that the term older means for a longer time in Arda.
such mythological creatures, just as Tom Bombadil are thought to have been created together with Arda, and resulted from the music of the Ainur.

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: May 21, 2006
And the discord of Melkor.

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Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!

Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 21, 2006
yes, indeed.
but Melkor is also an Ainu, so he counts among the Ainur, though his music was opposite to the others.

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Soldier of the East - Rank 4
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Date: Oct 9, 2006

There is no answer to the question "what were the namles creatures". If there was they would be called something different then the nameles creatures.


Also, I found it quite obvious that the drumers were orcs/goblins.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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there is just as well no trouble in trying to answer it
everything has an answer Gil Galad
knowing or not not knowing it is the problem

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Soldier of the East - Rank 4
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Date: Oct 9, 2006

Your right TM. I'll refraes it.


There is no knowing the answer.


That better.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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don't worry about that

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Valar
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Posts: 140
Date: Oct 11, 2006

In another forum I did a thread topic about the 'Critters of Moria' (aka the Nameless things)...as what has been reiterated everything is all speculation.  But I would like to share some ideas that we all came up with:


"I felt that something horrible was near from the moment that my foot first touched the water," said Frodo. "What was the thing, or were there many of them?"
"I do not know," answered Gandalf, "but the arms were all guided by one purpose. Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world."~Journey in the Dark


This is the Fellowship's encounter with the Watcher in the Water.  What mystery that's surrounding the Watcher is that was it this one giant thing with 'tentacle' like arms, or was it several tentacle like arms that were all guided towards Frodo.  That also remains a mystery...the thing I noticed about here is that Gandalf speculates that something had been 'driven out of dark waters under the mountains.'  So when Gandalf says:


"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."~The White Rider


I got the impression that there were possibly other 'Watchers/' tentacle like creatures that were the 'gnawing nameless things.'


Again, everything is all speculation, just an possibility I thought about.  I think the whole purpose of all this vagueness and mystery is to build up suspense and tension.  Afterall, I think it's much scarier to not know your enemy, or not even know what it is.  That is at least more suspenseful for me, to have something that is surrounded by so much mystery and uncertainty...just think about how creepy that is to have 'gnawing nameless things' compared to having gnawing balrogs.



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I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Oct 12, 2006
lack of knowledge has always been a source of fear
fear the unknown

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