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Topic: Kings of Noldor

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Elf of Rivendell - Rank 2
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Date: Apr 9, 2006
Kings of Noldor

If Feanor was the greatest of all Eldar maker of the Simarills, why was he not made king of the Noldor as opposed to Fingolfin?

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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I think that you may have confused Feanor with his son.  Feanor was the High King of the Noldor upon the death of his father Finwe.  However, upon Feanor's death, his son Maedhros did not accept the High Kingship, passing it instead to his half-uncle, Fingolfin.



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Oin
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Elendil the Tall: That might not be true. Fingolfin and his camp never acknowledged that Feanor was the High King, nor was he ever crowned or officially declared to have been. Fingolfin always held (see HoME XII: Shibboleth of Feanor) that he was the Heir of Finwe, and not Feanor. So the actual second High King of the Noldor could be Fingolfin and not Feanor - it depends on whose side you take in the argument.

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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That is very true Oin.  However, in either case, the High Kingship still passed to Fingolfin, whether after Finwe's or Feanor's deaths is debatable (but thanks for pointing that out).

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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I believe, though I have not quotation, that Fingolfin was crowned, considerable before Feanors death.


Something to do with people of Beleriand knew Fingolfin was King of the Noldor (and called him by this title) long before the Fourth battle of Beleriand, thus being when Feanor was slain by Gothmog after all Feanors host was destroyed outside Angbands gates I believe?



-- Edited by The One at 12:13, 2006-05-12

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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mouthofsauron, I'm afraid that you are incorrect.  Feanor was killed in the Second Battle of Beleriand, the Dagor-nuin-Giliath, and soon thereafter Maedhros refused to take up the High-Kingship.  It was actually Fingolfin, not Feanor, who was killed in the Fourth Battle, the Dagor Bragollach.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Forgive me, temporary malfunction. But I was right in saying he was killed by Gothmog outside the gates of Angband?

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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Yes and no.  Feanor was fatally wounded in the confronatation with Gothmog, although he did not die immediately, the fire of his fea later consuming his hroa.

-- Edited by Elendil the Tall at 07:42, 2006-05-13

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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But therefore Gothmog was the cuase of his death so he did technically slay him.

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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Is it me or just a grand coincidence that after the High Kingship was turned over to the House of Fingolfin, the houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin become merged and hold Kingship over Men?

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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I am not sure why it did not go to Feanor. It was known that he was the greater of the Sons of Finwe and had he succeded he may have had more yeilding results against Morgoth...but that is unlikely.

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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Elendil already answered that.

Feanor was the High King of the Noldor for a brief time. Just long enough to initiate a kinslaying and lead the bulk of the Noldor in an assault Morgoth. I don't believe Fingolfin ever accepted this and his camp probably was united behind him as King.


The key player in this saga was Maedhros, who turned over the leadership of the Noldor to Fingolfin.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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anyway, after the end of the First Age the title of King of the Noldor lost much of its greatness, and as an example for this after the death of Gil-galad nobody tryed to reclame this title, even though for example Elrond would have had right to claim this, being from the line of Turgon.


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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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I reread the chapter of the Silmarillion regarding the High King after Finwe. Maedhros gives a clear explanation for not assuming the mantle of High King. He states to Fingolfin that he (Fingolfin) is the rightful king as the eldest of Finwe's house.

So it would appear that the Eldest male is the rightful heir, or else after Turgon's death the title would have gone to Galadriel.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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yes, I guess so
because, the other potential king, Elron was a Peredhil and so, not really a Noldor...
but, again, the title had no more importance...

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
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It really isnt explained in the Silmarillion how the Noldorin right of sucession works except for the one quote from Maedhros:

For Maedhros begged forgiveness for the desertion in Araman; and he waived his claim to kingship over all the Noldor, saying to Fingolfin: 'If there lay no grievance between us, lord, still the kingship would rightly come to you, the eldest here of the house of Finwe, and not the least wise.' But to this his brothers did not all in their hearts agree. - Simarillion

The narrator states that Maedros waives his right to kingship, but Maedhros himself states that the right of Kingship goes to the eldest of Finwe's house. We see an example of this when the High Kingship moves from Fingon to Turgon rather than to Fingon's son Gil-Galad.

And though Maedhros does not give up the rights of his line, it is stated that the sons of Feanor are now dispossessed of their rights to the Kingship as exampled at the death of Fingolfin when the High King by right should have been Maedhros.

It appears that the right of succession excludes women, as Galadriel should have become High Queen at the death of Turgon. But there is already enough confusion about the history of Galadriel.


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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Indeed, I do agree that Galadriel was next in line to the thorne, but I think she didn't think about it from 2 reasons:


- she knew that that position wasn't a very powerfull one anymore


- she wanted to repent for her deeds in the past, and perhaps not trying to get the throne, just like not accepting the ring from Frodo was an act to show that she had changed



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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
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TM - Your first reason isnt correct. At the death of Turgon she should have become Queen rather than Gil-Galad becoming King. There were considerable Noldor left at that time and the position still held power, and we know that Galadriel was still seeking a realm to rule over at that point in history.

As for the refusal of the ring (6000+ years later), that occured at a time when there was no High King, though it is assumed that Elrond would have held the right to claim the title.

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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shouldn't the throne have passed to the eldest male descendant?
I mean, indeed in Numenor there could be Queens as well, but I thought that the Elves were passing that throne only to males
indeed, from the quote you shown it does seem that Galadriel should have become Queen, but remember, even in your quote, those words are adressed to a male

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
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I couldn't find anything that states specifically that the Kingship of the Noldor should pass to the eldest male although it certainly appears that is the case.

Technically at the death of Turgon, Celebrimbor is the rightful heir to the High Kingship if the right of succession excludes Galadriel. I know that the line of Feanor is considered dispossessed.

And due to Tolkien's later thoughts, I'm inclined to believe that had he finished the story about Galadriel she may have played a larger role in the history of the Noldor.

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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'I couldn't find anything that states specifically that the Kingship of the Noldor should pass to the eldest male although it certainly appears that is the case.'

Perhaps females preserved the line for males, but (seemingly) could not themselves become High Queens.

 

At one point Amroth was considered to be Galadriel's son -- this was certainly rejected later, and maybe (who knows) Tolkien adandoned it in part to keep a male elf out of this section of the family tree.

 

Though as noted, the Elves were fading in the Third Age in any case, and Elrond made no such claim, perhaps not seeing a need after the Last Alliance and so on.



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Tom Bombadil
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But don't you think Galin, that there still would be Elves in Valinor that are considered "kings" like before they left for Middle-earth?
If you look at the Lady Varda, she was sort of considered a type of "queen" of the Valar, since the Lord Manwë has been considered the " King" of the Valar. And I believe that some also called him that. But I might be mistaken of course.

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Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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But above I am considering the High Kingship of the Exiled Noldor in response to Celethil's post.

 

If the idea was simply eldest (which could explain certain things), it doesn't seem that Galadriel could receive this title, keeping in mind Gil-galad became a Finarfinian, unlike in the 1977 Silmarillion (although later Galadriel is referred to as a Queen of Lorien, at least, in some texts).

 

smile



-- Edited by Galin on Tuesday 17th of May 2011 01:03:03 PM

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Tom Bombadil
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Ok. I was just thinking that there would still be kings after all the Elves had passed into the West. My mistake

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Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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Well, you're not wrong of course Arwen... there's still Ingwe for example, or Finarfin ruling the Noldor.

I was just considering the Exilic kings there, as I say; especially the passing down of the High Kingship.

smile



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Tom Bombadil
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So what else can we discuss? IS there anything left TO discuss?

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