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Topic: Angmar vs Arnor

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 16, 2006
RE: Angmar vs Arnor
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no you don't lose any forces in the general idea, because, even though you do lose soldiers, you can replace them with others from the conquered lands.
and the more you conquer the stronger you get.
and please keep one thing in mind, just to remind you of Gondor's strength.
in the time of Romendacil's great grandfather, Atanatar II, Gondor reached the peak of its power ever.
and during the time of Romendacil's grandfather Narmacil and of his father Calmacil the power stayed just as strong.
now...we know how strong Gondor was even during the War of the Ring. Imagine the power of Gondor at the peak of its power.
No way absolutely that the Witchking could have simply passed all the way through Gondor in the time of the kingdom's greatest glory.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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I won't deny that Gondor was at its greatest extent but it was slowing losing that extent. It was now on the turning point of decline.


You say that if you conquere the land you lose soldiers but then gain men back from the lands you conquer. I agree with this but not in this instance. The old brown lands and eastward to Rhun had vertually no men in them to gain control of. You had the men of Rhavannion which aided Gondor but they were further North. So Gondor would have attacked, lost forces, succeeded in making the enemy retreat to Rhun but then have no men to gain back from the land it managed to retain.



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listen mouthofsauron, this is one of the last places where you should start to speculate or state your opinion.
no need to analyse yourself what could or could have not happened.
you know why?
because Tolkien clearly tells us what did happen.
read the lotr and you will clearly find that the power of Gondor only started to clearly diminish with the kin-strife, and the first problems on that matter appeared during the rule of Valacar, Romendacil's son.
but in Romendacil's time Gondor was a still at its peak.
and for anyone that says Gondor's navy was weak (fact that I saw above), they have absolutely no idea about lore.
why?
because before the rule of Atanatar, Romendacil's great grandfather, was the period of the great four ship-kings that made Gondor's navy become a huge military force.
and since the navy didn't suffer much during the generations till Romendacil, as Gondor had peace it was still very powerfull.

now as long as people don't even take into account such clear evidence that TOLKIEN gave us and start saying stuff like "well, maybe Gondor's navy wasn't so strong in that time I think", which is only an idea they had and that doesn't belong in a lore forum, the discussion will get nowhere.
if from now on you want to make a statement don't tell me what you presume, tell me what tolkien said.
for example if you want to show that Gondor had problems in the East during the time of Romendacil give a simple quote from the UT or the appendix B of lotr.
don't make a simple "I think the Easterlings were making trouble" statement.

oh, and another thing, mouthofsauron, the men of Rhovanion weren't north at all.
you say there were no men in that area.
well, that is exactly where they lived.
and they were the ones that protected the area around Rhun, so there was protection.
I don't know how much more proof I have to bring until you finally are able to admit you let's say at least might have been wrong and that Gondor was indeed strong.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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I will await the quotes you send me The Might.


But i will say that Rob=vannion was further north. it was no where near the Old brown lands and Ered lithiu. It was parralel with the sea of Rhun.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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you can see Rhovanion on the map in lotr.
but I think there are good quotes about the exact area the Northmen occupied during the time of Romendacil in UT.
but I must go for a few hours so maybe you can find a quote for that

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Chief Maiar
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Just to point out ladies, from a military perspective. It would be quite unwise to have a stronghold between two allied realms that would not only both see it as a threat but also had direct communication between each other (something that no one else on Arda had, save maybe the elves and that wasn't really 'long-distance'). Imagine if you're Germany (no offence to any Germanic habitants  you have no telephones only horses, where as both France (I know bad example) and ... (can't remember what countries are the other side of Germany, lol) have satilite telecommunication. Regardless of how powerfull each nation is France and ... can simultaneously attack by planning it ahead using such devices. I am of course refering to the Palantiri. That would give a heavy advantage to the men. Another advantage of having the palantir was that (if Angmar were indeed between the Isen and Gwathir) if the Witch King attack either Arnor or Gondor from there then the attackee (that is the person being attacked) could inform the other party who then could themselves attack the weaker undefended side, while the attackee retreated slightly in the middle drawing the forces of the Witch-King further into Arnor while allowing other parts of the army (or possible other allies) to move to the sides then once in place the Witch King would find himself stuck between pointy swords and pointy swords (and quite possibly a few pointy ears). Never wage war without first making sure you have good communication to your allies. Just some food for thought
Also as an added bit, thankyou those of you who voted me the wisest character in middle earth


 


Just as another added point behave or you'll be (ONLY KIDDING, I just wanted to use the emoticon, I just had my first exam so I'm a bit hyper)



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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Olorin/Gandalf - Nice post there, Maiar, but your main point in that post is immediately flawed. Arnor and Gondor ceased to act as allies from the time of the three sons of the last king of Arnor split Arnor into three.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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wrong...
Gondor helped Arnor fight against Angmar as much as they could.
and they did eventually come to destroy Angmar and they also succeeded...but it was already too late.
And against a common enemy they would and DID fight.

and Olorin...hehe, you broke the 3 smiley rule...hehe

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Chief Maiar
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I wouldn't necessarily say wrong there TM as I believe they did cease to be official allies, but still there was a blood link between them and if Gondor was under threat from an enemy within reach of Arnor I do believe like all clever commanders (to use an example The 'Allied' Forces allying with Russia to fight Hitler, ironically then turning on each other.) they would have re-established the alliance properly or at least for the duration of the war.


And as for the 3 smiley rule, know that I am an angelic being with far more powerfull smileys than you could possibly imagine!!!! (OK I made that last bit up.)


Question not my methods T.M. you......anyway on other news, did I mention I am the wisest person in Middle Earth!


 



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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now indeed, Gondor didn't help Arnor, but they would have done that if Angmar was right near their kingdom.
"The lord of that land was known as the Witch-king, but it was not known until later that he was indeed the chief of the Ringwraiths, who came north with the purpose of destroying the Dúnedain in Arnor, seeing hope in their disunion, while Gondor was strong."
(lotr, appendix B)
and of course...we are talking about the possibility in which Angmar would have been created right near Gondor.
The Gondorians would have seen them as a threat.
And also from the quote we can see that Gondor was clearly presented as strong, so the very idea of the Wk travelling with his force through Gondor while the kingdom was at the peak of its power is impossible.



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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Do you honestly think that Gondor could fight Angmar in the west, Harad from the south, Wainriders from the East and eventually Mordor from the East? Oh and not to mention any threat from Dol Guldur.


You seem to be classing Arnor as a threat. It was too busy fighting with itself to worry too much about Angmar. Wars betwenn Cardolan, Rhauduar and Arthedain were at there peak. So discluding Arnor, and counting Gondor as a minimum threat I think my analogy of my location was a bit harsh if anything, more like 4/12.



-- Edited by mouthofsauron111 at 20:32, 2006-05-16

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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for the last time.
and I mean last time.
how many damn quotes do you still ned to show that
GONDOR HAD NO DAMN TROUBLE WITH NO EASTERLINGS OR CORSAIRS OR ANYTHING ELSE IN THAT TIME.
Romendacil defeated them.
He consolidated the power.
He fortified the borders.
He brought more men for defence.
TOLKIEN HIMSELF SAYS THAT THE WK ATACKED ARNOR BECAUSE GONDOR WAS TOO STRONG.

tell me.
what do you need more as proof that there WAS NO WAY TO DEFEAT GONDOR ?


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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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NO HE DID NOT! He manged to make them retreat! There is a complete difference between defeating an enemy and making them retreat. If you cannot eastblish the difference between the two then don't post.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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ok...to make theories without quotes is one thing.
but this is already annoying.
again..the quote
"Minalcar therefore in 1248 led out a great force, and between Rhovanion and the Inland Sea he defeated a large army of the Easterlings and destroyed all their camps and settlements east of the Sea. He then took the name of Rómendacil."

if you post again without reading my posts I will report this to the powers as this is one of the basic rules, also posted by The One in the rules forum.
read all posts before making yours.
and as long as you don't use quotes...you can't even prove me wrong as you only speculate.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Well you know my quotes score so at present no I can't post so i will leave it up to others.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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why won't you accept you were wrong abput Romendacil?
or about the Wk?
it isn't hard...
simply I was wrong will do.
no need to change the subject again.
you don't lose anyone's respect if you say you were wrong, you actually win respect for beein honest.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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The problem is I know I am right, but to prove that I need quotes and I am not spending an hour looking through books. Therefore until I find a better means of getting quotes I will have to step aside.
Its not as if I can be inactive for a while as without me the would be nobody active, except yourself.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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hehe. me and glorfindel...

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Yeah. I am pretty disgusted at some members on here abadoning the site. Won't be long before it closes I expect...

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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I hope not...
it would be a pity...
another site that isn't given a chance because it is considered too small by all...
and now really honestly, I feel really a lot of pity for the poor the One that spent much time in making and organising the site...
and that now doesn't get the reward he deserves...

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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All thanks to sites like the plaza, which have a huge portion of worldwide Tolkein enthusiasts.


I wish I could get more member for the site!



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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if this site had been opened 4 years ago the situation would be totally different now

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Valar
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Well of course, because the movies created more interest, ergo, more fans for all. Don't make this another plaza-bashing party :P

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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I am the last one that would say anything aginst the plaza...
and i see we have a new admin.
hail yavanna, giver of fruits...could some strawberries btw???

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Of course not ; )
I feel I am not quite being taken seriously in my shiny new valar-hood,:P lol  *throws strawberries TM's way anyhow* 

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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A Greater Valar!!! Finally we meet you wonderous one, have mercy, i was but using the Plaza as an example, not making a mockery of it. And I am sure The might will say the same.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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wonderous one?
hehe, very respectful mouthofsauron
and listen...I know you from the plaza a little
and I never thought that Clebrian Green would ever be a Valar...not to mention a Greater one...
hehe...Celebrain Green the giver of fruits
hope your pastures are leprechaun free...don't like them...

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I see we have an interesting discussion going on here.  Ok, so lets clear some things away.  It's clear that Angmar was first started in 1300 TA:
Evil things begin to multiply again.  Orcs increase in the Misty Mountains and attack the dwarves.  The Nazgul reappear.  The cheif of these comes north to Angmar.~Appendix B.


Mos, while the Atlas of Middle-earth is a very good reference book done by Karen Wynn Fonstad she did not have access to all of Tolkien's writings.  Eventhough if it is a good accurate source that I would recommend, I would not put what she wrote above what Tolkien wrote.  Though it is a good reference, it is not entirely accurate, as she didn't have access to Tolkien's Letters or HoME.


Gondor reached the height of it's power under Hyarmendacil's reign (which was about 150 years before the WK goes to Angmar).  During Hyarmendacil's reign it was said that "The might of Hyarmendacil no enemy dared to contest during the remainder of his long reign."~Appendix A: Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion


Hyarmendacil was the last of the Shipkings and his son Atanatar takes the throne, and Appendix A points out Gondor's power begins to decline, but there is no problems in Gondor until the reign of Valacar (son of Romendacil II):
So ended the line of the Ship Kings.  Atanatar Alcarin son of Hyarmendacil lived in great splendour, so that men said precious stones are pebbles in Gondor for children to play with.  But Atanatar loved ease and did nothing to maintain the power that he had inherited, and his two sons were of like temper.  The waning of Gondor had already begun before he died, and was doubtless observed by its enemies.  The watch upon Mordor was neglected.  Nonetheless it was not until the days of Valacar that hte first great evil came upon Gondor: the civil war of the Kin-strife, in which great loss and ruin was caused and never fully repaired.~ibid
So, Gondor's power started to decline after Hyarmendacil, but there were no major problems up until Valacar's reign (which was after Romendacil), and it was during Romendacil's reign when Angmar was first established.  As TM goes to show Romendacil strengthened up Gondor after it was neglected by his fathers and grand-fathers, it was during his time that the Pillars of the Argonath were built displaying the strength Gondor still had.  But it was probably too late, for as the quote goes to show Gondor was in decline and despite Romendacil fortifying Gondor it was his son Valacar that would be hit with Gondor's first troubles.  The fact remains that during Romendacil's reign Gondor was very capable and strong, especially during Romendacil's reign I should say, eventhough if it had been going into decline from the power during Hyarmendacil's reign.


More to come later...



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I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
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Quick correction, Hyarmendacil's reign was about 250 years before the WK coming to Angmar, I can't do math anymore.

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I think both of you are confusing Hyarmendacil l with Hyarmendacil ll. Gondor was at its greatest under the influence of Hyarmendacil l:


In Appendix A (I, iv) to The Lord of the Rings the kingdom of Gondor at the summit of its power in the days of King Hyarmendacil I (Third Age 1015-1149) is said to have extended northwards "to Celebrant and the southern eaves of Mirkwood."


Also you will notice that its say that he reigned for 125 year from 1015. Therefore by the time the WK establishes his realm in 1350 Hyarmendacil ll would be dead assuming he lived a similar lifespan to his father.


Boromir88 - A good post but I will correct you - Angmar was sent north in 1300, but did not properly establish Agmar until 1350 - this is the confusion.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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firstly I must slightly disagree with Boromir88 on that matter.
it was still in the beginning of the rule Atanatar II that Gondor was at the peak of its power, and that is why he got his title "Alcarin" (the Glorious).
"So ended the line of the Ship-kings. Atanatar Alcarin son of Hyarmendacil lived in great splendour, so that men said precious stones are pebbles in Gondor for children to play with. But Atanatar loved ease and did nothing to maintain the power that he had inherited, and his two sons were of like temper. The waning of Gondor had already begun before he died, and was doubtless observed by its enemies. The watch upon Mordor was neglected. Nonetheless it was not until the days of Valacar that the first great evil came upon Gondor: the civil war of the Kin-strife, in which great loss and ruin was caused and never fully repaired."

as we see the power of Hyarmendacil was inherited by Atanatar II who ruled during Gondor's greatest period, but only the first part of his rule was in the maximum peak of the power as towards the end of his rule the power began to wain.
very important is this part:
"But Atanatar loved ease and did nothing to maintain the power that he had inherited, and his two sons were of like temper. The waning of Gondor had already begun before he died, and was doubtless observed by its enemies. The watch upon Mordor was neglected. Nonetheless it was not until the days of Valacar that the first great evil came upon Gondor"
clearly shows that THE POWER BARELY DECREASED UNTIL THE TIME OF VALACAR.


a small difference, in the time of Hyarmendacil I, Gondor was at its maximum expanse.
and glorfindel, if you would again read the other posts you would realise nobody ever said Hyarmendacil ever had anything to do with the WK.
Romendacil II was king in Gondor when Angmar was created in 1300.
and even though Angmar might have been completed in 1350 that is irrelevant.
because we are talking about the CREATION of Angmar not the COMPLETION of Angmar.
all the quotes about Atanar or Hyarmendacil show that the power of Gondor was still almost at its peak, just as Boromir88 said and just I said in all my ther posts

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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All quotes also show that Hyarmendacil ll was the last ruler before the Decline came on - he died only just when Angmar was being sent North. Therefore, Gondor would be waning and would barely have enough forces to destroy Angmar and prepare for the later attacks from the southand East.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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no he didn't
who gave you that idea?
Hyarmendacil died in 1149
and I don't think you want to give up
how many more quotes do you need.
clearly shown: THE POWER WAS MAINTAINED
MAINTAINED MAINTAINED MAINTAINED!!!
THE POWER DIDN'T REALLY DECLINE UNTIL THE TIME OF VALACAR

and we are talking about Hyarmendacil I not II.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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In Appendix A (I, iv) to The Lord of the Rings the kingdom of Gondor at the summit of its power in the days of King Hyarmendacil I (Third Age 1015-1149) is said to have extended northwards "to Celebrant and the southern eaves of Mirkwood.


I said Hyarmendacil ll died in 1300 assuming he lived as long as Hyarmendacil l. You need to read the posts properly, The Might.



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you need to read the appendix
no need to assume
we are clearly told
Hyarmendacil II died in 1621
Hyarmendacil II is not the son of Hyarmendacil I
he is his great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandson.
a simple list to make you understand easier:

Hyarmendacil I (Ruled for 134 years to III 1149)

Atanatar II (Ruled for 77 years to III 1226)

Narmacil I (Ruled for 68 years to III 1294)

Calmacil (Ruled for 10 years to III 1304)

Rómendacil II (Ruled for 62 years to III 1366)

Valacar (Ruled for 66 years to III 1432)

Eldacar (Ruled intermittently for 48 years to III 1490)

Castamir (Ruled for 10 years to III 1447)

Aldamir (Ruled for 50 years to III 1540)

Hyarmendacil II

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Ahh thanks for clearing that up, The Might.


Still I say Gondor was two pushed to fight 2 ememies and later 4.


And also if the WK went in my location he would have only Gondor to deal with. Rivendell and Mirkwood would be too far away and Arnor was destroying itself. Therefore I think  he would prefer to face Gondor alone as opposed to all the lessar places in the North.



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listen, I already said this
stop talking about that position as possible, because to get an army over the borders of Gondor all the way to there in that time was impossible.
so if the wk could never get there there is no point to talk about that place.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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That would depend on how desperate the WK was for such a good position. If they really wanted to get there they could go all the way south into Harad by going through Mordor and then sail Belegaer to get there.

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as I already mentioned a few times.
1. orcs were very afraid of water and would not build boats.
2. Gondor's navy was at ist peak as the time as the ship kings had ruled a few centuries before.
and it had not become less strong.
no way to pass.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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That would depend on how far out to Belegaer the WK would be prepared to go.


As said before if the Orcs were commanded to go, they would.



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