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Topic: Greatest Man

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: Apr 2, 2006
Greatest Man

Who would you say is the greatest of men throughout the ages?


Isildur
Hurin
Elendil
Aragorn
Turin
Ar-pharazon
Earendil (half man though he is)



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Maiar
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I would sayyyy...well, all of them have their heroic qualities, and it's very hard to pick just one.  But my top three are: Earendil, Turin, and Ar-Pharazon.  Earendil because he was able to convince the Valar to come to the aid of Middle-Earth.  Turin because he slew Glaurung and contributed greatly to the safety of Doriath.  Ar-Pharazon because of his sheer audacity, or, should I say, ambition. 

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Chief Maiar
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I'd say King Elessar would have to be somewhere up there as he did unite the kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor in the fourth age. But the slaying of Glaurung was an immense feat.
NB wasn't Earendil human and his sons half man (Elros) and half elf (Elrond),

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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Olorin, be careful when considering your half-Elves.  Elros was a Man in all regards once he had made his choice, as was Elrond an Elf.  By binding themselves to their respective fates, they were basically the exact same as any other Elf or Man, except in lineage.


In answer of the original question, I would have to say that Hurin was the greatest of Men.  He was a valiant fighter, and yet a kind and gentle man.  Furthermore, he was able to withstand the direct torture of Morgoth, and was in the end forced to endure immense mental and emotional trauma while watching the sufferings of his family, still without breaking his spirit.



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Gondor civilian - Rank 1
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Isildur. And just because my knowledge is limited about those other men. Aragorn was also great man but because Isildur cut the ring in first place, he gets my vote.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Remember people - Turin supposedly slayed Morgoth in the Dagor Dagorath.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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I would say none of them, for me the greatest man was Faramir, because he was able to say he is ready to die for his kingdom and even to do that. the way he remained faithful, even though his father made his life a lot harder is for me incredible

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Peoples of Rohan - Rank 1
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Personally I feel that there could be two answers too this question depending on how you look at the question.  A person could be heroic in a way that only affects a limited few people, like Hurin, who was undoubtedly a heroic man, or heroic due to doing something for the good of many.  That said, my vote would probably have to go to Earendil, because he risked so much to seek the aid of the Valar.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Now I don't want to start a big discussion, but I just wanted to remember to you that also Amandil tried that, and maybe the situation of Amandil was even more heroic, as his people were persecuted and still he had the power to try and seek Valinor, beyond almost any hope, and to save his kin. And also Earendil had after all a lot more hope of succeding, considering the fact that Valinor had not yet been hidden and that he had a Silmaril on board his boat, which might hake the Valar let him pass easier. So I would say based on this, Amandil would be better then Earendil in this case.

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Maiar
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I could make an argument for every one of the men on the list. Each of them was important in some way or another, and it would be hard to pick just one as the greatest. I know at least for me, that every time I look at the list, I chose a different person! So...I suppose it all depends on what you mean...Greatest in what respect? It could be accomplishments, impact on the future of Middle-Earth, renowned for a single heroic act. It just depends!

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Servants of Mordor - Rank 1
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Aragorn was cool...but I think the coolEST was Beorn...who married Luthien and together went to Angband and took one of the jewels from Morgoth's crown!

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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omg...Nessila!!!
I thank you...you finally gave me a good laugh for today!
I am just thinking of Luthien in bed with Beorn saying:
Oh yeah, you animal! I like when you are furry!
And Beorn in the other side of the bed is roaring like a bear...

Ok, I'll be a nice guy and tell you his name wasn't Beorn...lol

-- Edited by The Might at 01:23, 2006-04-20

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Men of Numenor - Rank 1
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As has been said before, they all have their qualities, but Earendil stands out among the rest. It was he who sought the help of the Valar when Numenor was in need, for which the elves held him in the highest regard.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Yes but can Earendil be compared to say Hurin, taken alive after much battle to Angband, or Turin slaying Glaurung?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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I doubt this is the place where a discussion can be started as these are not objective things, but the subjective decision that each takes. For someone it can be Turin, for someone else Earendil. This can not really be discussed.
What can however be discussed is that maybe Amandil should not be considered greater then Earendil.
Indeed they both set sailing to look for Valinor, but as I already said, Amandil's situation was harder and more difficult.
Still, if your decision is Earendil, I can't prove you wrong.

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Rohan peasant - Rank 2
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I don't know exactly whom i would choose as Greatest Man, but I know that one of the "Probably Greatest Men" has to be Tuor as well! I like him most in the whole Silmarillion, he's such a great Man! (But I don't know if he really is the Greatest...)


^But you are completely right, it is a personal thing to choose for every single one!



-- Edited by Eowyn at 18:40, 2006-05-27

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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What did he do again? I've forgotten.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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In his youth, Tuor journeyed into Nevrast, and there spoke with the Vala Ulmo, if you remember he took the armour left for him in Mount Taras. Ulmo sent him as messenger to Turgon in Gondolin. he wedded Turgon's daughter Idril, who gave birth to Eärendil. That is about all....after the fall of Gondolin he lived near the mouths of Sirion, and eventually sailed into the west.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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So its more about what Greatness did for him, than for how he achieved the Greatness himself. I mean speaking to Ulmo is pretty great, but it didn't involve him achieving anything to get it did it?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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yes of course, he was very brave indeed, he lived alone in the wild of Nevrast and he was the chosen one to save Gondolin, but unfortunately he was not listened to.
And he fought fiercely in the battle in Gondolin.
ANd as I said this is a subjective matter, you can't say who was greater.


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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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OK, he was the 'Chosen one' to save Gondolin, but compare him to Earendil then, the 'Chosen one' to save Middle-earth and possibly Arda itself.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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as I said this is only a subjective matter

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Men of Numenor - Rank 1
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It is very subjective and all names have something to say about them. But still i decide to take Ar-Pharazôn the Golden as the greatest man. He surely seems to be like the greatest when you read about him.

He attacked Mordor and brought Sauron back as a hostage to his kingdom, but Sauron was able to corrupt Ar-Pharazôn and convinced him to attack Valinor. Ar-Pharazôn began building a huge fleet to attack Valinor and finally broke the Ban of the Valar, landing on the shores of the Undying Lands. Only Earendil made it that way, but with fierce help from Ulmo.

The Valar then laid down their guardianship of the world and called upon Eru the One, who sank the invasion fleet, and all of Númenor beneath the ocean, and changed the shape of the world so that Valinor was no longer connected to Middle-earth. To imagine that one man could evoke such a thing... no men ever did all this (or evoked all this, even if he had been corrupted).

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Beren - I think you are confusing 'Power' with 'Greatness'. Pharazon was a very strong and powerful man yes, but compared to Hurin say he was utterly ungreat. He was Corrupted by Sauron pretty quickly whereas Hurin stood up and fought back even in the face of Morgoth. Hurin you can guarantee would not have succumbed to  Sauron's fair-seeming.


Sailing to Valinor was not hard to do for the Numenoreans. If you think that there were insurpassable obstacles that blocked your passing and made it almost nion impossible to get to Valinor you are wrong. If there were such heafty enchantments barring the way why would the Valar have to put the ban on them in the first place?
I would imagine that it was not hard getting to Valinor from Numenor - Earendil had 1500 miles more to sail than Ar-Pharazon!


The hard bit would be when you get there. Earendil succeeded this challenge in reaching the Valar, Pharazon did not. as soon as he set foot upon Aman he fell into the Abyss.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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ok....again subjective
the vey power of Ar-Pharazon gave him his greatness and even though I still like Faramir more I must agree that Ar-Pharazon, just like Hurin and all the others had a special greatness of his own
considering that they lived in different times and conditions you can't really compare Hurin to Ar-Pharazon or to Faramir

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Men of Numenor - Rank 1
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It would be much more easy if we could decide which is the greatest hero ever to live in Arda, we would have so many to pick from... still the all time hero would be Luthien by far.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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We had a poll back along about that Beren - 'Who was the greatest of all the Children of Iluvatar?'.


Luthien wouldn't be. Turin would be. He slayed Morgoth in the Dagor Dagorath - noone can surpass that deed.



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Men of Numenor - Rank 1
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I'm sorry to correct you (again we disagree; i'm truly sorry hope soon we agree on something because i think you have a great way of thinking), but he did not exactly slay Morgoth. If i'm correct he just threw him down the abbys. It is said that he is is destined to slay Morgoth, but that is not the same. He was certainly a tremendous warrior, and while his life was marred with tragedy and despair he has a great destiny ahead of him. I find it intriguing that one so brave and cowardly as Turambar is destined to slay Morgoth when there are so many other arguably worthy choices such as Tuor or Húrin. No Turin is not the one which i would ever call greatest.You disagree? Then look at his life...

1. He had killed his best friend (Beleg). Accidentally true, but he felt guilty for it none the less.
2. He had married his own sister and been the cause of her suicide. Again accidentally but again HE felt the guilt for it.
3. His mother was lost and dead as far as he knew because of him ("Then Morwen was distraught, and refusing the counsel of Melian she rode forth alone into the wild to seek her son, or some true tidings of him.").
4. He had been the cause of the downfall of Nargothrond by building the great bridge and going to open war against Morgoth instead of staying in hiding.
4a. He had been the cause of Finduilas' death.
5. He had killed Brandir unjustly.

In essense he had been the cause of the deaths of everyone he loved. I think it is very safe to say that he killed himself not out of any noble thoughts of protecting his loved ones (they were all dead already anyway except Morwen but he thought she was dead) but out of guilt and despair.

You know, if he REALLY wanted to do something wih his life at this point he should have attempted to rescue his father from Morgoth. But instead he ran off like a crazy man and killed himself. He wasn't concerned about Doriath or how the curse might affect that kingdom, all he was thinking about was his own guilt and in despair he killed himself.
There was nothing noble or self-sacrificing in his act. It was a selfish act (all depression is based in self-centeredness) and was done to lessen HIS hurt not the hurt of others. Real great men do not work that way.

Luthien on the other hand surpassed everyone. Do you want a resume of her live also to compare?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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again I stay out of it and say it is subjective
for some Turin is the typical great tragic hero, just as in many old greek theater plays.
now Luthien might be from many points of view greater then Turin, but still facts can't necessarily prove one wrong or right

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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As there was little to nothing written on the Last Battle I cannot confirm my exclamation with quotes. However, it is generally accepted that Olorin Slayed Sauron in the last battle whilst Morgoth was Slain by Turin - not cast into the abyss, he was utterly slain, Hroa from Fea and Melkors spirit went back to Eru along with Saurons.


If you really want me to get some mild support of this in the form of Textual evidence i could try in the next couple of days with difficult.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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this is all I can help you with
it must be said that

"nowhere is there any explanation given- though in much later versions of
the mythology Turin Turambar appears in the Last Battle and smites
Morgoth with his black sword"
(The book of Lost Tales II)
but not told anything about fea and hroa

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Firstly here is a quote stating that Gandalf would defeat Sauron:


"To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coëval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olórin was his name. But of Olórin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf."
(Unfinished Tales)


GREAT! just found the exact quote:


"Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor.  In  that  day Tulkas shall strive  with Melko,  and on  his right shall  stand  Fionwe  and  on  his  left  Turin  Turambar,  son of Hurin,  Conqueror  of  Fate,  coming  from  the  halls  of Mandos; and it shall be the  black sword  of Turin  that deals  unto Melko his death and final end; and so  shall the  children of  Hurin and all Men be avenged."
(Morgoths Ring)


 


What were you guys saying??



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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ok, the first great problem that I have not yet mentioned is that HOME is not very credible
now, I am not questioning Christian Tolkien's work at all, but still these informations never appeared in the books themselves and we can't be totally sure what Tolkien's view towards the Last Battle was in the end.
On the other hand I tend to approve with it becuase, as shown in the quote above, this idea about Turin killing Melkor comes from later versions and usually I tend to consider the later versions the better ones as they are the last ideas of Tolkien
but as he never clarified the problem we can't be sure

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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We cannot be sure that the whole myth was really Tolkiens wife's idear but Tolkien said it was his can we?


But I suppose if there is a quote from whatever source that is reasonably accurate it must be taken as proof.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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the idea is Tolkien's
but remember he had many ideas about the Dagor Dagorath throughout time.
it is a fact that towards the end of his life he transfered many elements from the Last Battle to the end of the War of Wrath, so we can't be sure what he really thought about it
he simply never cleared the problem

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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The Dagor Dagorath is supposed to be the 'Armegeddon' (spelling way off). Though I admit the War of Wrath did seem to be written of as a kind of 'End'.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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yes it was the end, but it could be that Tolkien meant for the War of Wrath to be the end of Melkor, unfortunately he passed away and he didn't get the chance to clear that.
But, I agree with you, as long as we have no other information, Turin is the one who killed Melkor

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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I wonder why Tolkien never told someone like Christopher his whole intentions with his myth. What did he die of again?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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pneumonia
anyway, not disagreeing with you, just in this case I think the term passed away is better, because for me Tolkien is not dead, he is still well alive in all his works...he unfortunately left us

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Hmm. Well you would think at any rate that someone must have known his intentions. Anyway now his Fea has passed through the Halls of Mandos and thence onward to where none but Eru knoweth.



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