Tolkien Top 100 Middle Earth's Top 100
Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
 

Topic: Fall of Numenor

Post Info
Elf of Rivendell - Rank 2
Status: Offline
Posts: 43
Date: Mar 20, 2006
Fall of Numenor

Does anyone find the fall of such a wonderful place as Numeor with its fair gardens and laughter, joy and wonder to be a very sad event? Who was the ultimate evil force in bringing this about.  Although Sauron had set the Numerons against the Valor it was Morgoth's will that originally made the Numeroeans thirst for the undying lands.

__________________
So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you.
Chief Maiar
Status: Offline
Posts: 375
Date: Mar 21, 2006
I think in this case one should look at how Sauron thought at the time, since his master was gone most likely never to return that made him the most powerful being in middle-earth which he immediatly took to mean he should rule it (similar to Saruman, unfortunatly) although it may have been Melkors will that originally awoke the hunger, it was only the power of Sauron that made the Numenoreans believe they could actually pull of an invasion of the Undying Lands/Valinor, in general I believe that they had a good heart but Sauron can twist and turn a good heart for he is adept at convincing even the most noble that he is not evil. Does one do a good thing with good intentions or an evil thing with good intentions?

__________________

...But it was so that from Nienna he learned pity and patience.

Elf of Rivendell - Rank 2
Status: Offline
Posts: 43
Date: Mar 21, 2006

I understand your point but I do not think the Numenoreans would have succumbed to Sauron's persuasion (to go against the Valar) had it not been for Morgoth's will. (as it was this will which made them dislike the Valar and Elder of the Undying lands in the first place).  Remember it was Morgoth's will that made the Numenoreans hunger for undying life otherwise they would have been contented by the long life granted by the Valar and would not have sought war with them.


 



__________________
So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you.
Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
Status: Offline
Posts: 113
Date: Mar 25, 2006

In a way, you are right, Galadriel. It was indeed Morgoth who made the mortality of Men seem like a horrible thing. It was the "Gift of Eru", yet because of the lies and deceits of Morgoth, Men began to see their shortened lives as burdens as opposed to boons.


The Númenóreans, although granted extremely long lives, also began to see their mortality as a negative long before the Akallabêth. Where originally they had given up their lives willingly (as Aragorn does in Appendix A), by the time of Ar-Pharazôn they were clinging to every single year that they could.


However, it was Sauron who saw this weakness in them and exploited it. Without the coaxing of Sauron, turning their jealousy of the Elves into hatred of the Valar, then the Númenóreans would have probably not done anything about it. It was Sauron who changed the religion of the Númenóreans as well, turning them to worship Morgoth as opposed to the Valar.



__________________
Elf of Rivendell - Rank 2
Status: Offline
Posts: 43
Date: Mar 25, 2006
I agree you are probably right in that it was a combination of both the evil doing of Morgoth and Sauron who led to the fall of the Numenoreans in the breeding of their discontent in not having the eternal life of the Valar.

__________________
So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you.
Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
Status: Offline
Posts: 2161
Date: Jun 3, 2006
But the one who actually accomplished the Downfall of Numenor is Melkor as he made them think that death was a doom rather than a gift and therefore made them want to have Valinor in the first place, believing they would then be made immortal if they went there. However it could not have been accomplshed without the guidance of Sauron who originaly told the Men about Melkor.

__________________

Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!

Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
Status: Offline
Posts: 3118
Date: Jun 3, 2006
of course, also the Men themselves brought their destruction upon them, but indeed Melkor and Sauron were the main reasons.

__________________
Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
Status: Offline
Posts: 2372
Date: Jun 3, 2006
That has already been established TM. We are deciding who was the greater cause.

__________________
My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
Status: Offline
Posts: 3118
Date: Jun 3, 2006
and what if that has already established?


__________________
Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
Status: Offline
Posts: 2372
Date: Jun 3, 2006
It hasn't and cut with the idiotic smileys in every post!

__________________
My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
Status: Offline
Posts: 3118
Date: Jun 3, 2006

I am allowed to use what smileys I want, as long as I don't use more then 3 per post

__________________
Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
Status: Offline
Posts: 619
Date: Oct 6, 2006
Maybe its just me, but it has appeared to me for some time that Tolkien enjoys replaying the same theme over and over through his work but on a smaller scale each time.

The only thing I find surprising is that he did not change his villain completely from the Second to the Third Age.

Melkor deceives the Noldor and causes their expulsion from Valinor. On a smaller scale Sauron does the same thing with the Numenoreans.

__________________
Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
Status: Offline
Posts: 3118
Date: Oct 8, 2006
Could be that he was intending to use that in the fourth age as well, in Gondor, as seen in the "Return of the Shadow". Unfortunately the story was never completed.

__________________
Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
 
Page 1 of 1  sorted by
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.

Chatbox

Please log in to join the chat!

Previous poll results (What is the 'Mightiest' weapon in Tolkiens myth?): Gurthang, blade of Turin - 28%, Narsil, sword of Elendil - 12%, Anduril, Sword of King Ellesar Aragorn - 23%, The Mace of the Witch King - 5%, Grond the dread hammer/hammer of the underworld -19%, Black axe of Gothmog - 4, Glamdring of Gandalf - 7%, Orcrist of Thorin - 1% A NEW POLL HAS BEEN ADDED TO TOLKIEN FORUMS Tolkien Forums - The Mythical world of J.R.R Tolkien