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Topic: Ar-Pharazôn the Fool

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Valar
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Date: Mar 20, 2006
Ar-Pharazôn the Fool

Okay, the title obviously tells all about this question..We know that Ar-Pharazôn was last King of Númenor and that there is a good reason for it. He was the reason that Númenor was losted by bringing Sauron to that island as a "hostage". Now, even though it may someway be consired to be wise move to bring Sauron there, mostly it just presents the great foolness of A-P. What make him feel so almighty and powerfull that he believed he could keep an eye of him and believing he could control him? Invidual from most noblest race of men was so stupid and blind..

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: Mar 20, 2006

This post has been written on LOTRplaza.


You must understand that AP had no idear of Saurons deeds during the first age and he also knew that Numenor was the greatest land under the undying realm. he knew that only the mightiest of Men were in that realm and he knew that he was king of that realm.
He was the king of men so it is understandable he may think he was superior to all in middle-earth being less than Numenor.
This factor added on to moving Sauron to Numenor being what was thought a wise move contributed to Ar-Pharazons decision.
Also you are forgetting Sauron abilities, like Morgoths to ensnare the weak hearted. It does state in the Silmarillion that Ar-Pharazon was not so easy caught out as the other men from Numenor:


"Therefore he humbled himself before Ar-Pharazon and smoothed his toungue; and men wondered,for all that he said seemed fair and wise.
But Ar-Pharazon was not yet decieved, and it came into his mind that, for the better keeping of Sauron and of his oaths of fealty, he should be brought to Numenor, there to dwell as a hostage for himself and all the servants in Middle-earth." (The silmarillion, Akallabeth)


If you could provide some quotes for Ar-pharazon appearing follish anywhere perhaps the discussion could go further.



-- Edited by The One at 15:29, 2006-03-21

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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Glorfindel1235 -- As a member of the LOTR Plaza myself, could I please ask you to provide a link to the thread that you took that post from as well as the name of the person who posted it and at which time it was posted? I know that MANY members of the Plaza value their posts and work hard on them so I'd like to see them given credit for their hard work.


As for your question, Agarwaen, I'd have to say the answer is Ar-Pharazôn's pride and the pride of the Númenóreans in general. In the later days of Númenór, the Númenóreans thought themselves the best. They were, admittedly, far superior to those Men that inhabited Middle-earth, and perhaps even greater than the coastal settlements of the Elves (ie: the Grey Havens), and so what was Sauron but another pitiful warlord to be crushed under the heel of the great Númenórean empire? Ar-Pharazôn seriously believed himself better and more powerful than Sauron and so believed that he could control him.



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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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You misunderstand me Narguzir. I said that this topic had been posted on the plaza. The post I wrote was my own view and not copied from the plaza. There is no need to link to the plaza, they have enough visiotrs as it is.

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Valar
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Date: Mar 25, 2006

I seriously doubt that this topic has been on Plaza. Maybe the title is the same than one in Plaza but i can assure that all of this post was my own and it was the first time that i have writed this post.


And yes Narg, i agree that it was mainly because of that pride and "illusion" that he could dominate everything.



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I am Tulkas the Valiant who laughs ever in the face of Good or Evil.
Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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Date: Mar 25, 2006

Ah, my appologies then Glorfindel. You're right, I did misinterpret your post.


Even so, however, if in future you wish to quote something from the Plaza, I would still like to ask you to link to the thread in which you found the information. It's not a matter of directing people there, it's merely common courtesy. There can also be legal implications surrounding plaigairism as well, but that's an extreme that I'm sure most people won't go to.



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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Don't you find things a bit rigid on the plaza Narguzir? You write something mildly out of the norm like 'I find you anoying' and you have the admins breathing down your neck. At least on here things are more relaxed and casual, as well as having, or going to have a good hierarchy of high ranking members then sideranks then mods then chief mods then lessar admins then greater admins and finally chief admins. That is one long hierarchy yet there is still an elemant of relaxment about what you write. I must say i prefer this site more than LOTRplaza even if they have more features.

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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There are many things that contribute to that feeling, Glorfindel. At first, the Plaza was a great deal like this forum - there were far fewer members, things were very relaxed and people did a whole lot of things that are plain silly and outrageous. When you have c. 80,000 members though, from all walks of life and every corner of the globe, there have to be some rules and restrictions so that everybody (or as close to everybody as is possible) is content.


As one of the Rulers (erm, similar to Admins, but concentrated in one "Kingdom" as opposed to the entire Plaza) on the Plaza and a long-time member (1000 days this Thursday!), I've seen the Plaza evolve and have developed many, many friends though it. It can be a VERY relaxing place, once you get into it and accustomed to the rules et al. You simply have to find your niche - what you like the most and feel the most comfortable doing - and go with that. The rules are rather simple ones, and ones of common courtesy, and are not all that difficult to follow, I believe.



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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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What about the admins on there? They all think they are webmasters the way they behave.

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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They ARE the webmasters of the Plaza. Eru/Phil may have created the site, but he has been absent except on rare occasions for a long, long time now. It's completely up to the R/A team to maintain and run the site. From coding, to managerial things, to member interaction - it's all the R/As.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Why doesn't the websmaster participate then? I know of few sites where admins are given nearly webmaster controls.

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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Eru leads a very busy life. I'm not going to go into very much detail, since that's his own personal information, but he's passed on the Plaza to people who he deems capable and so is out enjoying life.



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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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So, if you don't mind me asking which of the admins are you on the plaza?

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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Date: Mar 27, 2006
I'm the one named Narguzîr, surprisingly enough. I'm the Lord Sauron, Ruler of Mordor.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Is that rank 20 in the minions of Mordor? Is your usename Turin or is that someone else?

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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Túrin is someone else. He used to be Sauron, but stepped down recently. I was the Witch-king (Co-Ruler) at the time, so I stepped up into the guise of Sauron. And yes, it's rank 20.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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You have both of those ranks here, save that they are in different catagories. Sauron is the greater however as it says he gets moderator privilages! I suppose that is why you chose 'Slaves of Udun'?

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Soldier of the East - Rank 4
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Ar-Pharazon was really not that foolish in taking Sauron captive. Trying to take over Valinor, now that was way foolish.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Maybe it was but remember he was not of his right mind then. He was half corrupted by Sauron in to doing that so you can't really say it was wholly his choice.

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Soldier of the East - Rank 4
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You right. I had forgoten how much of an influence Sauron had on him at the time.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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still, he should have been more careful when it came to Sauron
I mean, how can you let your former great enemy become your best advisor...
The problem is Sauron was a smart guy, and he knew what to say in order to achieve his goal.

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Soldier of the East - Rank 4
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So, your saying that Sauron was an overgrown Grima.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Grima was only a tool.
Indeed Grima said many things, but not really to achieve his purposes, but mostly to achieve Saruman's purposes.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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I suppose you are right The Might. He was acting under Saruman's orders but he did have a cunning mind and was able to suduce Theoden into ruling Rohan according to Saruman's rule. Similar to Sauron but not quite as convincing. 

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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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I can say that AP was a fool. He was deceived. Sauron knew well that 3000+ years had passed since the founding of Numenor and he was aware that men lose knowledge and change over time.

Sauron also converted the Numenoreans to the worship of Morgoth, so it would make sense that in the minds of men, since they worshipped a power they were led to believe was greater than Manwe, that landing in Valinor would make sense. In AP's mind he was protected by a greater power and leading the greatest mariners in the world to the undying lands. He would have also felt that since his ancestor had done the same thing, it could be done.

So I dont think he was a fool. Megalomanical maybe, but his judgement seemed sound enough based on what he knew.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Perhaps in the end, but how big of an idiot can you be to take your worst enemy as your new advisor. He should have killed Sauron when he had the chance, instead of taking him prisoner.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Ar-pharazon did not merely surround Sauron in Mordor and say 'Sauron your surrounded, now you are my chief advisor'.


He took him prisoner as perhaps he thought he could sway Sauron to his serice or learn lore from him. Sauron however was very cunning. Over he time he persuaded The King to release him and then take himinto his service and then eventually become his chief advisor. It took Sauron many years to accomplish this.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Well, it was Ar-Pharazon's arrogance to think that he was much stronger that Sauron and that as a prisoner Sauron was powerless that brought him his doom.
I believe a wise king should know better then that.

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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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TM- I think you are looking at it from the point of view of someone who has read the entirety of the History of Middle-Earth as a piece of fiction. Try to look at it as if it were actual history of 3000+ years. Thats way more information than is contained in the Silmarillion and many generations of men have come and gone. Things have been forgotten. I cannot believe that AP even perceived Sauron as on of the Ainur. He believed that he had conquered Sauron and made him subservient.

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Soldier of the East - Rank 4
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TM, what do you think that Ar-Pharazon should have done when Sauron surendured to him? He could not kill him on the spot. What else should he have done?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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He shouldn't have considered Sauron just another Middle-earthian warlord without any chance of defeating the Numenorean army.
I never said he should have realised from the beginning that Sauron was an Ainu, or that Sauron had been Melkor's lieutenant during the first age, but still, he should have at least listened to the warnings he was given before it was too late.

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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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He really didnt stand a chance against the full might of Sauron's will in such proximity once he made the decision to arrest him and bring him to Numenor.

If he was unaware of Sauron's true nature, then why should he not have considered him an opposing warlord? AP wasnt on friendly terms with the Elves, so what else would he have thought of Sauron?

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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Sauron managed to convince the Valar not to cast him out through the doors of night with melkor and had convinced the Noldor that he was their friend save the mightiest of them. It would have been childsplay for him to convince a mortal man to do his will indirectly. Also, as someone said, he was estranged from the Eldar and would not have heeded any warning from either the Valar or the Eldar even had they sent someone.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Sauron managed to convince the Valar not to cast him through the Door of Night?


I don't remember that. He fled from the War of Wrath when things went ill. Then Eonwe afterwards met up with him and he sued for Pardon but Eonwe had not the power to pardon one of his own, so he asked Sauron to be taken back to Valinor but Sauron refused out of shame and fear.



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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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Obviously he was smooth enough in tongue to convince Eonwe, the Herald of Manwe, to consider actually taking him before the Valar to sue for pardon rather than just killing him then and there, which is what I would probably have done lol. To convince a Maiar not to slaughter you there and then for the evils you commited under Morgoth is still no mean feat.


1 mistake, 1 mistake....



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Who can defeat my prowess in war on the guarded plain of Nargothrond?
Soldier of the East - Rank 4
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Sauron didn't convince Eonwe to take him to Manwe. As MoS has mentioned, Eonwe didn't have the power to kill Sauron then and there. However, didn't Eonwe have the power to take Sauron to Manwe? I mean even though he said no, couldn't he make him come to Manwe.



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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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I will accept if it is my Bad and hold my hands up ere but what of Gandalf and the Balrog? Both  Maiar Spirits, one serving the Dark Lord, the other serving Manwe and yet we see that Gandalf slew the balrog.There is an interesting parallel


As for the second point, It is an interesting one but I think that Manwe would have wanted for Sauron to submit willingly and so maybe told Eonwe not to bind him if he didnt want to go. Willing obediance always beats forced obediance.



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Who can defeat my prowess in war on the guarded plain of Nargothrond?
Soldier of the East - Rank 4
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Who are you talking about when you say "he served the dark lord"? Do you mean Morgoth or Sauron? Morgoth wasn't around at that time. And the Balrog of Moria didn't serve Sauron at all.


Also, that was a completely seprete thing from Eonwe and Sauron.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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I agree, the balrog no longer served anyone.

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