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Topic: Could Smeagol be revived?

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: Mar 18, 2006
Could Smeagol be revived?

The Lord of the Rings books seem to indicate that Gollum could not have survived very long if the ring had been destroyed. However Gandalf takes a different view. He believes that Maybe Gollum could be revived after the ring had been destroyed:


"I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it."
(Fellowship of the ring, shadow from the past)


Now we are inclined to always believe something that a wise character says, but that does not usually conflict with what the actual book is saying. Who is right?



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Rohan peasant - Rank 2
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Date: Mar 21, 2006

Well, I don't really remember any part in the book that suggested the opposite of what Gandalf said. Infact, I think it supports it. During his journey with Frodo, Smeagol actualy comes out of his shell. He becomes devoted to Frodo, even if it is mainly because of his "other half's" longing for the ring. The small part of him that is still good longs for acceptance back into the world of mortal beings. You can even see this in the Hobbit during the riddle game.


So I do believe that if Gollum had not gone with the ring it to the fire, that yes, he would have been destroyed, but Smeagol would have survived!



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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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I believe that you are misinterpreting that quote, Glorfindel1235.


I am fairly sure that Gandalf does not mean that Gollum/Sméagol could have survived after the destruction of the Ring, when his spirit would have been broken along with the Ring, but rather means that Gollum could have repented before the destruction of the Ring (ie: "before he dies"). This is indeed very plausible, and in fact nearly happens before Frodo, Sam and Gollum enter Shelob's lair.


"Gollum looked at them. A strange expression passed over his lean hungry face. The gleam faded from his eyes, and they went dim and grey, old and tired. A spasm of pain seemed to twist him, and he turned away, peering back up towards the pass, shaking his head, as if engaged in some interior debate. Then he came back, and slowly putting out a trembling hand, very cautiously he touched Frodo's knee - but almost the touch was a caress. For a fleeting moment, could one of the sleepers have seen him, they would have thought that they beheld an old weary hobbit, shrunken by the years that had carried him far beyond his time, beyond friends and kin, and the fields and streams of youth, an old starved pitiable thing.
But at that touch Frodo stirred and cried out softly in his sleep, and immediately Sam was wide awake. The first thing he saw was Gollum - 'pawing at master,' as he thought.
'Hey you!' he said roughly. `What are you up to?'
'Nothing, nothing,' said Gollum softly. `Nice Master!'
'I daresay,' said Sam. 'But where have you been to - sneaking off and sneaking back, you old villain? '
Gollum withdrew himself, and a green glint flickered under his heavy lids. Almost spider-like he looked now, crouched back on his bent limbs, with his protruding eyes. The fleeting moment had passed, beyond recall. 'Sneaking, sneaking!' he hissed. 'Hobbits always so polite, yes. O nice hobbits! Sméagol brings them up secret ways that nobody else could find. Tired he is, thirsty he is, yes thirsty; and he guides them and he searches for paths, and they say sneak, sneak. Very nice friends, O yes my precious, very nice.'
Sam felt a bit remorseful, though not more trustful. 'Sorry.' he said. 'I'm sorry, but you startled me out of my sleep. And I shouldn't have been sleeping, and that made me a bit sharp. But Mr. Frodo. he's that tired, I asked him to have a wink; and well, that's how it is. Sorry. But where have you been to? '
'Sneaking,' said Gollum, and the green glint did not leave his eyes." (The Two Towers, The Stairs of Cirith Ungol)



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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Good quotes Narguzir.

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Maiar
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Date: Apr 14, 2006
I think that Smeagol very well could have lived for a short while after the ring was destroyed. After all, Bilbo's life had been extended by the ring as well, and he still lived after it was destroyed. I have to agree with Narguzir about the quote though, I really don't think you were interpreting it correctly.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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there was only one cure for that just like in the case of Frodo and Bilbo, going to Aman.
the ring-bearers, even if the Ring had been destroyed still kept the nightmares and thoughts about the Ring in their minds. I can also provide some quotes if you want them. the only way Bilbo and frodo, and also Gollum could have been totally curred from the pain caused by the ring was for them to go to Aman and live the rest of their lives there.

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Maiar
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Date: Apr 15, 2006
Yes, to be cured of the pain...that doesn't mean that they couldn't survive without leaving Middle-Earth behind! Frodo wouldn't have been happy, but he would have lived. And Bilbo still would have lived a while longer. And Smeagol probably would have been the same. If he hadn't died at Mount Doom, then he also probably could have lived for a while even after the ring's destruction.

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Valar
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Date: Apr 15, 2006
I agree with what The Might said, and despite the promise Smeagol showed under Frodo's influence, I think he'd have been broken when the ring was destroyed. He'd regressed back to Gollum anyway,  by the time the ring was destroyed and I don't think he'd have survived, because it was such a big part of him.   

-- Edited by Tinuviel at 20:24, 2006-04-15

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Maiar
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With that, to some extent I agree. I'm not entirely sure what would happen to Smeagol once the ring had been destryed, but the 'regression' you talked about seems more than likely. What I'm saying is that he would still be alive if even for a short while, and of course there's always the possibility he would change thought that seems slim...

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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He would have just as Bilbo and Frodo, but as I said the only chance left for Gollum was to go to Aman.

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Maiar
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Date: Apr 15, 2006
Only chance...well, we still don't know how things would be after the ring was destroyed, but most likely you're correct about that! He'd be alive but in pain...

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Not necessarily pain, but just like Frodo having nightmares. Also his lifespan was probably very short after the destruction of the ring and Gollum would age very very quickly just as Bilbo did. And so he would probably only live for a few more years, and if taken to Aman he would at least live in peace.

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Peoples of Rohan - Rank 1
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I agree with what Narg said about it being more likely that Gandalf was talking about it being possible that Smeagol could have been cured before the ring was destroyed rather than he being able to live for ages after the ring was destroyed.  Although to be honest, I can imagine that Gollum would ever have been cured whilst the ring still existed.  Whilst the temptation of the Ring was still there, it would have been too easy for Gollum to go back to his old ways.

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Valar
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Date: Apr 16, 2006
It could be that if Gollum were destroyed with the ring, Smeagol would have had a chance. However, I know that's unlikely, especially as he'd become Gollum again by then. If somehow he'd helped destroy the ring and remained alive, maybe Smeagol'd have been 'set free' and had a minute chance. But seeing as Frodo was still affected by it after destruction, Smeagol would have been even moreso, so... mm.

-- Edited by Tinuviel at 18:04, 2006-04-16

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I am Yavanna, Giver of Fruits.
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Apr 16, 2006
it is the third time I say it, but I will again, yes Frodo was affected, yes Gollum would also be, but if taken to Aman he could live a normal life for the few years that he had left, considering the fact that without the ring the aging process would accelerate a lot.
There is no need to say it is likely or unlikely, it is a fact that if the Ring destroyed Gollum could be taken to Aman where he would live in peace.

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Maiar
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I suppose you're right, but I'm not sure how much taking him to Aman would really affect him in the long run...

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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I am not in the mood to look for quotes, but you can find them yourself, there is a direct quote somewhere where Gandalf clearly states that the hope for Smeagol is to be taken over the Sea. also in the last chapter the fact the ring-bearers left is proof. Also the fact Frodo was always sick on the date he was stabbed by the Witch King and there is a quote saying he kept having nightmares. So from all this I am sure you can draw the conclusion the only way is to go to Aman...

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Men of Numenor - Rank 1
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I believe Narguzir  is right. Gandalf probably meant that it was not likely Gollum would change his ways before the ring was destroyed. Gollum was in love with the ring, yet he hated it at the same time. This left him with a decision to repent, and this forsake his love of the ring, or devote himself wholly to it. He does not decide fast enough, it seems, as he dies with the ring.

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Valar
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The quote Narg gives Tolkien thought was one of the most emotional parts of his books, that along with the **** crow when the Rohirrim arrive to Gondor's aid:


For me perhaps the most tragic moment in the Tale comes when Sam fails to note the complete change in Gollum’s tone and aspect....His (Gollum’s) repentance is blighted and all Frodo’s pity is (in a sense) wasted. Shelob’s lair becomes inevitable."~Letter 246


It shows the near redemption of Gollum, but because of Sam's reaction it is now beyond hope.  Sam did not intend bad, but unlike Frodo, he had a lack of 'Pity' for Gollum, and here is just an example of a good person that unknowingly did a wrong thing.  He mistook Gollum's 'pawing' at Frodo, and being the protective body guard type Sam was, he is quick to go after Gollum.  Which causes Gollum to lose all hope of redemption.


Sam does eventually learn to pity Gollum, but Tolkien said for the benefit of Gollum, it was too late


"This is due of course to the 'logic of the story'. Sam could hardly have acted differently. (He did reach the point of pity at last (III 221-222) but for the good of Gollum too late."~Letter 246


And even more interesting, Tolkien gives us a scenario of what would have happened had Gollum been 'saved' and repented in that one moment when he was about to:


"But possession satisfied I think he would then have sacrificed himself for Frodo’s sake and have voluntarily cast himself into the fiery abyss."~Letter 246


Now this is interesting because for Gollum to come into possession of the Ring, would have had to of taken it by force, or stolen it from Frodo, because Frodo for sure wasn't going to give it up.  It was like a desire to feed both desires in Gollum...his desire to have the Ring, but yet his love for Frodo and his 'new self' would have voluntarily sacrificed himself.


 



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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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His body would probably die very quickly, but first his midpnd would heal.

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