Quote "Many other good and strong spirits came to inhabit Middle-Earth. These were perhaps Maiar, like Melian, yet from the histories this cannot now be learned. Chief of these, in the tales of Middle -Earth, is he whom the Grey Elves named Iarwain Ben-adar, which means both old and without father. By Dwarves he was named Forn, by men Orald and by Hobbits he was called Tom Bombadil.
He could not have been any maiar or Ainur on second thoughts as he was in Ea before Melko, first of all the Ainur descended, according to what he told Frodo in the Old forest.
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Utślie'n aurė! Aiya Eldaliė ar Atanatįri, utślie'n aurė! Auta i lómė! Aurė entuluva!
Grey - What then would Goldberry and River-woman be? If river-woman was a "spirit" some sort and Goldberry was her daughter, do they fall to same category than Tom?
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I am Tulkas the Valiant who laughs ever in the face of Good or Evil.
The quote that Agarwaen posted is 100% correct. Tom Bombadil is an enigma within tLotR. He is not of that story. He was created outside of tLotR (see The Adventures of Tom Bombadil), and placed within it, so he has no true place within the story like all of the other characters do.
Just a quick point to add to all, Mr Bombadil is as old as Arda, correct? He eats, sleeps, sings, breaths, etc. Therefore he lives. If he is as old as Arda and has life THEN he cannot be a sentient being as the Eldar were the FIRST sentient beings and they are not as old as Arda, therefore Bombadillo must be some form of Ainur (possibly a Maia or a Vala who sneaked down, or a physical embodiment of Eru). Food for thought.
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...But it was so that from Nienna he learned pity and patience.
Forgive me Olorin, Maiar, but that possiblility is closed completely. Bombadil could not have been any Ainur for he was there before the first of the Ainur (Melkor, the One dark lord) decended.
Also Dwarves were created before the Elves. And also Ents were created at exactly the same time as you have recently quoted elsewhere i believe.
Personally I think he was either an anomely created by Melkors discord or a 'Mother, though father, nature' figure. He is Arda in phisical form. Master of hill nut and water or whatever.
now I don't want to give halfir too much credit for his Tom Bombadil lore but I think he has already presented about everything about TB in his threads. You can find them on lotrplaza.com in Advanced lore. They do have all the info and quotes you need. It would be pointless to start presenting all the quotes about TB, it is much easier to go there and read.
I would object to that request The Might. This is a seperate sight with its own loremasters. If you have seen info on the plaza, and i know there is a fair bit then good for you. But this site needs to develop that info as well as i am sure Olorin will agree.
Though I must agree with sauron's mouth, I'd like to add I have read the TB posts on plaza, and even so still wanted to make my point, as you will come to know not much can stop me making a point even if it's already been disproven. (Food for thought). There are however some members of this forum who are not members of plaza (T.M.!!!) and so wouldn't have access to halfirs lore, I have no objections to plaza members taking it and posting here as their own, lollers, though I cannot endorse such a blatant act of plaigerism. In response to mouthofsauron's earlier post however, the dwarves though they were 'created' before the Eldar, they did not live until after the Eldar awoke there is a reason the Eldar are called the Firstborn. Just as the trees were created before the Eldar but didnot have 'life' (i.e. the Ents) until after. If Bombadil were an Ainur and he descended to Ea before Melkor but in secret then Melkor would still be counted as the First to descend as Tom would have gone in secret. It is however completely possible (as I said earlier/elsewhere) that TB is the embodiment or Ea (therefore is the physical form of the flame imperishable/secret fire which burns at the heart of Ea and indeed the heart of all sentient life within their fea).
-- Edited by Olorin/Gandalf at 23:01, 2006-04-16
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...But it was so that from Nienna he learned pity and patience.
that was not a request that was an advice the research made by halfir is indeed very impressing and the answers he provides to your questions are 10 times better then any answer we could give you. As he says Tom Bombadil can represent in Tolkien's books at least 100 different things. He also brings very good quotes for every hypothesis and also analyses many other works from which Tolkien got his inspiration. TB is so complex that to fully understand what he is you need such a work. Now it depends if you want a simple answer or the detailed one. Because if you want the simple one it is TB can be a lot of things. I just gave you an advice...
I have access to the plaza (I can only not post), I can see what halfir said...I could even copy paste a few pages for you if you wish but that is not the idea here. The idea is to learn, and my opinion is that that is the best place for you to find your answer. you asked the question, I told you where you can find the answer, now it is up to you if you want to see it.
Firstly I would add that the Dwarves had life of there own before the Elves, Eru says this to stop Aule destroying them with the hammer. They are laid to rest understone until the coming of the firstborn becuase Eru could not suffer them coming first. I suggest you read the Quotes page in 'Navigation' top right.
About Halfir - I to have read his research, and no doubt extensive it is not fruitful. He can give many absurd and incorrect possible origins lfor TB like 'Eru himself' or 'Tolkien' and many good ones. he cannot however come up with any more than i say now -
'ENIGMA'
I am afraid that is his conclusion and I persoanally refuse it, though it quite likely is right as a quote furthuer up says.
NOTE TO THOSE: Play nice or speak not, especially with a maia in the room. Only warning, if fighting is required do it In Character.
Also please ALL bear in mind if an argument can be backed up with quotes it is more factual and therefore better LORE. I realise sometimes this is not possible for various reasons but it is better than speculation. [I know I know I speculate too but I AM the Devils Advocate.]
-- Edited by Olorin/Gandalf at 23:19, 2006-04-16
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...But it was so that from Nienna he learned pity and patience.
I promise to play nice, and I am happy you said we should better use quotes. But using quotes is not so important ,as beeing nice and accepting the opinions of others.
Forgive me Olorin, Maiar, but I will say my last post on the matter.
Notice The Might, Olorin states 'where possible' use quotes. Many aspects of Tolkiens world you know there won't be a quote stating your point but you know it stands just as good a chance of acceptance than if a quote did exist. There is no quote stating that TB was not a creature created from the discord of the music, just like there is not one stating that he was either.
yes, he might be a creature from the discord of the music, just as the Watche in the Water or other creatures without a clear past could. But he could just as well be many many other things, all with proof...so I think this one question that Tolkien never answered.
I think Glorfindel is EXACTLY right. Tom Bombadil is an enigma. My personal belief is that he is something woven into the creation of Arda by Eru, who repeatedly keeps secrets from the Ainur.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
As said earlier: Tom Bombadil is enigma. If Master himself didn't know (or tell) who he actually was, how could we say that we know who he is? I have studied this specific question long time, studied it from all different views but still i can't make up my mind what exatly Tom is. He was there before others and he earns the title Eldest, he was there before Dark Lord came, he was there before spirits inhabited trees. He's something that we will never get answer to and thats why, every opinion is as valid in this discussion who or what he really was.
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I am Tulkas the Valiant who laughs ever in the face of Good or Evil.
My theory: Iarwain Ben Adar was the first creation of Aule before he created the 7 Fathers of the Dwarves who were all created before the Eldar arrived in Arda. Manwe was offended by this and commanded Aule to put his creations to sleep only to awaken after the Eldar arrived in Arda. Aule did this with the 7 Fathers of the Dwarves, but his firstborn, Bombadil, he hid in the Old Forest far from notice of the Valar. Troubled by his loneliness, Aule later gave Bombadil an Elf maiden, Goldberry, as a companion. And so he is Eldest and Fatherless (being Aule's creation, not his son), and was given some of the power of his creator.
I had wondered about some kind of connection to Aule as well ... although I had never considered this particular take on it.
Hmmm ....
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There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something. You certainly usually find something, if you look, but it is not always quite the something you were after. -J.R.R. Tolkien (The Hobbit)
lblt, your theory sounds nice: for someone not familiar with the legendarium, it may even look plausible. However it is everything but!
In the Silmarillion, it is not Manwe who discovers Aule's creation of the Dwarves; Aule is directly spoken to by none other than Eru Himself. Now we should understand that Tolkien, a devout catholic, designed Eru to be God. The difference between Eru and the Ainur is not that between a more experienced father and his children; it is fundamentally different. Eru knows everything, he does not discover like we all do. Nothing can be hidden from him, as it could from the Valar. Eru is in every particle of this universe, at all times from before its beginning to after its end. I laugh at the possibility of Aule hiding Bombadil in the Old Forest, just as you hide a toy from your older brother!
Bombadil was not originally intended to stand in the legendarium. In view of this, he could not fit inside the story as all other characters. If we try to put together all evidence, we end up with many contradictions, so Tolkien's own statement that "even in mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one.(intentionally)" must certainly be the final word on the matter. May it be that Tolkien himself did not know and did not explore Bombadil's origin more than he put forth in LotR?
Finally, if we must make place for him in the legendarium, my idea is that Bombadil is one of the countless things created by Eru Himself, without the help of the Ainur. As said in 'The Silmarillion', each age brought things which the Ainur had not sung, and which took them by surprise. Bombadil is easily explained if we just consider him one of those things which sprung from Eru's mind, and which are there to play their part, however small or large, in the long history of the world: just as Bombadil did, when saving the hobbits so that they could move on with their quest.
-- Edited by John Wain on Saturday 5th of February 2011 09:50:30 PM
JW, I think you might be coming across a bit more strongly than the situation calls for ...
True - Eru, not Manwe - but there are quite a few details of lblt's theory that reveal that there is some familiarity with the legardinum present lol.
And just because Eru is all seeing and all knowing doesn't mean a person wouldn't attempt to hide a thing from him. Also, just because Eru is all seeing and all knowing doesn't mean that all the other Valar are as well. Just because it was Eru that conronted Aule, doesn't mean others like Manwe weren't in some way offended. It certainly sounds like "offended" might be applicable to Yavanna's reaction to it all.
That being said - it is a mystery. And wondering about mysteries is fun, in my opinion. Just as long as one doesn't convinve onesself that they have unravelled the mystery to a degree of certainty that may be inappropriate and untested.
And intentionally leaving some things as mysteries need not be read as prohibition against wonderings and musings about what could be so.
I feel that the intuitive resemblance to something of Aule might be related to a connection to the Earth and a few points of resemblance between Bombadil and the Dwarves. These may just be coincidences, of course.
And "some connection to Aule" is quite broad and generic ... still leaving room for plenty of mystery
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There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something. You certainly usually find something, if you look, but it is not always quite the something you were after. -J.R.R. Tolkien (The Hobbit)
Meimei, I do not think I'm coming across more strongly than necessary. On the contrary, I'm backing up my arguments with concrete evidence to discard the theory put forth by lblt ('discard' is rather a powerful word, but nonetheless a theory can either stand, or be doubtful, or else be wrong. My opinion is that his/ hers is wrong.)
Let's first take a look at what is said in 'The Silmarillion':
"It is told that in their beginning the Dwarves were made by Aulė in the darkness of Middle-earth; for so greatly did Aulė desire the coming of the Children, to have learners to whom he could teach his lore and his crafts, that he was unwilling to await the fulfilment of the designs of Ilśvatar. .[..] But fearing that the other Valar might blame his work, he wrought in secret: and he made first the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves in a hall under the mountains in Middle-earth." JRR Tolkien, The Silmarillion, "Of Aulė and Yavanna"
I bolded the word that seems to me crucial in this paragraph: "first". This indicates that there was no other creation of Aulė preceding the Dwarves, as suggested by lblt. Christopher Tolkien indicates in HoMe XI that this paragraph is original, with no editorial intervention. It was reached by many intermediate steps, but nowhere is there stated that Aulė created anything before the fathers of the Dwarves, or indeed that he created anything else at all.
Moreover, there is another passage in 'The Silmarillion' strongly suggesting against this:
"Now Ilśvatar knew what was done, and in the very hour that Aulės work was complete, and he was pleased, and began to instruct the Dwarves in the speech that he had devised for them, Ilśvatar spoke to him; and Aulė heard his voice and was silent. And the voice of Ilśvatar said to him: Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own bring only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?" JRR Tolkien, The Silmarillion, "Of Aulė and Yavanna"
The bolded paragraph indicates that Aulė could not give life of his own accord. Afterwards we are told that Eru accepted the creation of Aulė and gave the Dwarves free will. But if Aulė had already made Tom Bombadil before, would he not face the same problem of being incapable of giving him free will? Would not Eru have admonished Aulė at that time too? And finally, would Aulė have attempted something he knew was impossible for the second time?
Now let us turn our attention to the remarkable paragraph in LotR where Tom Bombadil tells the hobbits who he is:
"Eldest, thats what I am. Mark my words, my friends; Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless, before the Dark Lord came from Outside." JRR Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring, "In the House of Tom Bombadil"
In their very useful "The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion" by Christina Scull and Wayne Hammond, they comment this passage. Regarding the use of the word 'Eldest' by Bombadil, they note:
"In the first complete text for this chapter he [Bombadil] says: 'I am an Aborigine, that's what I am, the Aborigine of this land', changed to 'I am Ab-Origine' Ab-origine is Latin 'from the beginning' [...]" Scull, Hammond, The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion, "In the House of Tom Bombadil"
Also, about his being there before the river and the trees, they comment:
"This may mean that Tom was present when the Ainur (or the Valar and the Maiar) entered into the world and began their long task of shaping it according to the vision they had seen in the Music of Creation. In which case, Tom may be one of the Maiar, i.e. one of the lesser Ainur, who chose to remain in Middle-earth rather than to resettle in Aman in the West." Scull, Hammond, The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion, "In the House of Tom Bombadil"
They also state:
"Although it is not specifically stated that he never left Middle-earth, this is implied, in which case he is not one of the Valar." Scull, Hammond, The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion, "In the House of Tom Bombadil"
It is from the paragraph in LotR that someone might conceive of Tom being either a Maia or else, as lblt said, a creation of Aulė. But if we corroborate this information with that of 'The Silmarillion', such an assumption no longer makes sense.
-- Edited by John Wain on Thursday 10th of February 2011 05:36:18 PM
JW, I think you have sound arguments and lots of good references and things, yes.
I just don't think that "unfamiliar with the legardinum" is warranted. Perhaps "unclear about some details about the legardinum" or "only partially familiar with the legardinum" but I think wholly "unfamiliar" wouldn't quite fit. That's all I was saying.
And I haven't proposed a formal theory myself. I've just noted some similarities - and that is all. Similarities by themselves don't make good proofs - although they may seem interesting to some and ignite imagination.
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There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something. You certainly usually find something, if you look, but it is not always quite the something you were after. -J.R.R. Tolkien (The Hobbit)
John Wain, Might I make a small suggestion ... When posting in colors use bright text colors ... It is selfish of me to ask but that blue you used here I couldn't read until I copied your post, expanded and changed your font colors on my word processor. Please ... no offence meant ... but reading what you wrote is kind of important. Thanks, Bear
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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit Called or uncalled, God is present
Bear, no offence taken, but I don't really understand. Is blue hard to read? I use it especially because it is different from the normal white of the posts, and because it makes a contrast. Is this contrast too strong, then? What color do you suggest?
Meimei, I now understand that we were each talking about different things! I wrote:
lblt, your theory sounds nice: for someone not familiar with the legendarium, it may even look plausible. However it is everything but!
I reread this phrase from what I think is your perspective and I see how rude it may sound. But let me rephrase: when I said this, I was not implying that lblt is not familiar with the legendarium - indeed I could not suggest it since I can hardly know lblt from his/ her one post. What I meant is that he created a theory and that someone who reads it, someone not familiar with 'The Silmarillion', may well believe to be plausible.
Now regarding my own standing in this matter: when I started reading Tolkien, I started with 'The Silmarillion'. Because of this, in my mind the vast backcloth of the legendarium was already present when reading 'The Hobbit' and then 'The Lord of the Rings'. I saw things in a rather black and white manner back then, trying to fit everything into the logical construction of this legendarium. As such, for me characters such as Ungoliant, Glaurung or Tom Bombadil were clearly Maiar, because they simply could not fit in any other category.
Now let me reproduce the words of a rather controversial individual in 'Tolkienology' - David Day:
"Tom Bombadil - Maia master of Old Forest. Tom Bombadil [...] was probably a Maia spirit that came to Middle-earth in the Ages of Starlight. [...] He was a short, stout Man, with blue eyes [...]" David Day, A Guide to Tolkien
The only real contradiction here is that Day first says Tom is a Maia, and then that he is a Man, but I take this to be merely a passing error, because Tom surely took the appearance of a Man (which does not mean he was one, but as I say this is almost irrelevant to someone at least moderately familiar with the legendarium, who can spot it for an error).
I was at the time satisfied with David Day's conclusion, because it only reinforced what I also believed to be true. I later learnt not to trust anything by Day because he makes up facts. I have not yet encountered in Day's work blatant making up of facts, but what I rather think he does is present speculations as facts. Indeed in the paragraph cited it is clear that Day started from the known facts and then made some original research which he passed as the fact - but again he has a working theory at least, which falls in the second of my categories: it is doubtful, or to say the least, it is not possible to prove or disprove.)
Now let me quote another author who compiled a guide to Tolkien's world: J E A Tyler:
"Tom Bombadil - The 'Master of wood, water and hill', eldest of all 'speaking-peoples' in Middle-earth [...] It is not recorded in the Shire what kind of creature Bombadil was, but it seems certain from all available evidence that he was a unique being, 'oldest and fatherless' as the Elves deemed him. [...]" J E A Tyler, The Complete Tolkien Companion
I can see why some people would prefer Day's entry about Bombadil to Tyler's: Day presents a solution to Bombadil's origin problem which Tyler does not - and as such is more appealing to those who want everything to fit neatly, as I myself did once.
However reading more of Tolkien I came to accept that not everything is consistent, and not everything can be explained. I therefore proposed the theory that Bombadil is one of Eru/ God's creations, which did not come into the Music and which Eru devised of His own accord. This theory cannot either be proven or disproven, but I find it appealing because it acknowledges Tolkien's religious beliefs - in the sense that there are misteries that we don't know the answer to, just as Christians believe that God's ways are mysterious and not always clearly laid for us to understand.
-- Edited by John Wain on Thursday 10th of February 2011 09:15:39 PM
-- Edited by John Wain on Thursday 10th of February 2011 09:18:17 PM
Indeed if we take The Silmarillion into account then Tom cannot be a Valar or Maiar as Melkor was the first of those to arrive in Arda. Yet Tom says he was here before all else, including before 'The Dark One came from outside':
"Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside."
There is a loop hole with that quote though. He could be refering to the time when Melkor was ousted out of Arda by the coming of Tulkas. If Tom arrived then he would be in Arda before Melkor came back into Arda when he destroyed the Pillars of Light.
However he says he also remembers the first raindrop and I am fairly sure that occured before Tulkas came into Arda. So the only conclusion is that Tom was in Arda before any of the Ainur, because Melkor was the first.
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Utślie'n aurė! Aiya Eldaliė ar Atanatįri, utślie'n aurė! Auta i lómė! Aurė entuluva!
It is my whole-hearted belief that Tom Bombadil was an Ainur but NOT a Valar, quotes as follows:
"When the Elves passed Westward, I was here already" - Tom Bombadil, The Fellowship of the Ring
"Eldest, thats what I am, Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless, before The Dark Lord came from outside." - Tom Bombadil, FotR
I believe Tom to have been an Ainur because
1. The Ring did not affect him. 2. He was here before ought else, he claims to have come before the Darklord came. 3. He survived through all the wars of Beleriand, Morgoth's armies, dragons, etc, etc, for ages uncounted.
My theory is that Tom was one of the Ainur in the Music. He had seen the beauty and majesty of Arda and the Children and wanted to be a part of it. Tom is far too much of a free spirit to have become one of the Valar, The responsibilities and duties he would have had to be tied to did not interest him. However, he did love the Vision of Arda and slipped in to the World as a native at the very begining and has lived there as one of the Children. Also, being in Arda, like the Valar, his "being" is tied to Middle-Earth until the Last Battle, he may not leave, just as the fates of the Ainur/Valar are tied to Arda until the bitter end.
To Add, Goldberry may have been the daughter of a Maiar that helped govern rivers and streams in Arda? just throwin that one out there.... i know that it is said that the valar do not reproduce, but if Melian as a Maiar could, why not others?
-- Edited by azaghal on Monday 17th of September 2012 10:41:53 PM
-- Edited by azaghal on Monday 17th of September 2012 10:46:27 PM
-- Edited by azaghal on Monday 17th of September 2012 10:50:12 PM
I will boost your opinion by adding: In the Silmarillion, it was said that after Aule created the Dwarves and they were slumbering, as was commanded by Illuvatar, Aule revealed his creation to Yavannah and she feared that these Dwarves would cut down trees for their crafting so she created the Ents to be the voices of the growing things that she loved and that they would awaken after the firstborn awoke.
Tom says he remembers the first acorn and all this...I would say that puts him ahead of the Ents as far as being on Arda. I don't have my Sil here with me now so I can't give you proper word for word quoting but I pretty sure that is the way of it. In a nut shell!
Yes Bear, I was thinking the same thing. Arda personified. Since Gold came from the earth, and certain kinds of magic are earth-bound as well, the Ring would have no effect on its "Parent" the place it came from.
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Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow! Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!
Unless governed by something outside the Earth... say a God??
Just saying.
The Ring of Power was made by Sauron by the elements available, but within: "He poured his cruelty and Malice" therefore it was no longer of that world (Arda) or any other Element therein. It was imbued with demonic power and lust. Another element besides the ones designed...
-- Edited by Jaidoprism7 on Sunday 23rd of September 2012 08:31:38 AM
In the Silmarillion it is told that the ONLY way we (the people of Middle-Earth) were able to know some of what happened before the Children awaked is only what the Valar knew AND what they wished to share with the Elves in the Valinor, ie: the Noldor, who eventually left Valinor and returned to M.E. and shared that information with other Elves, Men , and Dwarves. Also, Melian shared only those thing that she knew of the Music, the building of Arda, and the War on Melkor, with the Sindar.
Now, it seems to me that either the Valar could not know ALL things that came into Arda, especially if it was another Ainur that wished to remain anymous. Or, the Valar knew of Tom/Ainur and didnt bother (as a courtesy maybe?) to inform the Peoples of M.E. of his origins and true nature.
Other notes: - Tom could actually SEE Frodo when he put the Ring on, it is not mentioned (as in the hobbit) that Gandalf could see Frodo in the "Wraith World". This may speak to Tom's "higher power." - even Saruman could not, even by whatever powers he had as a Maiar, see or percieve the Great Rings, as he would have taken, by force, Narya from Gandalf in captivity. Nor could he percieve that Elrond and Galadriel bore their Rings during the meetings of the White Council. - It seems that Tom mostly had given whatever essence of his power into the governance of The Old Forest, and there is powers must remain. This is reminicent of the powers of protection and bewilderment that Melian gave to the lands of Doriath, or the power Sauron put into the Ruling Ring.
-- Edited by azaghal on Sunday 23rd of September 2012 07:50:05 PM
Tom Bombadil...of course...
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