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Topic: Realm of Morgoth

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: May 10, 2006
RE: Realm of Morgoth

Yes, I don't know why that is. All UK people have an American flag - probably a IP mix up.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 10, 2006
could be.
still the fact remains that you shouldn't say you don't appreciate Americans as some members could feel offended by that remark. (not me I am not an American)

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Chief Maiar
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Date: May 11, 2006
May I point out at this point that if the human race continues to fight between its own citizens then the human race shall never leave earth, and considering our main fuel uses are damaging the atmosphere and that we are slowly killing it, then I must say that our outlook is bleak. I am British but first I am human, to mouth I say; just because some (out of a large population) of Americans are well not so great it doesn't mean that we shouldn't tar all of them with the same brush. I myself have no love for America and if I had the chance I place it back under British colonial rule BUT alot of my friends are American (and if you know the plaza setup my 'wife' is American). Just as you wouldn't think all muslims are terrorists, you shouldn't think badly of all Americans.
To TM I'd like to point out a fact I'm sure you are aware of, stop sparing I've read your arguments from start to finish and you don't always have to make a point.
As for anything else, this is not an official warning just some advice (after all that was the mission given to me by Manwe breath of Arda).

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 11, 2006
not make a point?
am I the one that is trying to make a point?
I was just explaining there is no proof for his affirmation.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: May 11, 2006
You have no proof disproving it either.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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that is the problem.
my proof is exactly your lack of proof.
If we are never told that Udun was a capital, we can say it wasn't.
why? because there are no other possibilities.
this is a yes or no question.
and considering the fact that no information is given we can be sure it wasn't a capital.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: May 12, 2006
My point exactly 'The Might'. Becuase of the factors I have given above (size, might, strength) Tolkien obviously thought that he did not need to put that it was Morgoths capital becuase it was obvious.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 12, 2006
do you see what you are doing?
you are putting words into The Master's mouth and thoughts into his head.
You can never know he thought unless you would be Tolkien himself, which is of course impossible.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: May 12, 2006
How can you say that he did not have those thoughts in his mind already The Might?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 12, 2006
did you even understand what I said?
using the logic you just said one could say:
how do you know that Tolkien didn't have dinosaurs in mind when he created hobbits?
(just an example)
this is worse then any other speculation
to say that Tolkien had some things in mind.
I mean, how can you know it?
did you talk to him?
if there is no quote in his work, you can't know this.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: May 12, 2006

Your dramatising The Might.


Dinosaurs obviously did not exist in Tolkiens world becuase there is not the slightest referance to them. However if Tolkien said that huge Dinosaur-like creatures roamed the earth then he would not actually be saying Dinosaurs existed in the World but neither is he excluding the idear completely.


The same can be said for this. Tolkien never said Udun was Morgoths capital, but he refers to it as Morgoths mightiest and final retreat, therefore hinting that it could be.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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please, for once, don't take my examples so seriously.
how many times do I have to write "only a stupid, random example" so that you stop analysing my examples and start realising what I meant.
and again don't put words into Tolkien's mouth.
He isn't hinting anything.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: May 12, 2006
The Might - he is saying that Udun was Morgoths biggest and final retreat! That would be proof enough to most that Udun stood more chance of being his capital than any other Stronghold! If you refuse to accept this statement then please stop repaetedly saying the same thing over and over.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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who is saying the same thing over and over?
you or me?
you keep saying that because it was bigger, that instantly made it capital, and you time after time somehow say that Tolkien hints towards without any proof at all.
I wouldn't say I am the one repeating things if I were.
I am only trying to make you understand you can't simply say a theory like that without any proof.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: May 12, 2006

Right i have a quote suggesting that Udun was the biggest strognhold of Melkor. With this i am saying that one could presume that it could, not is, be Morgoths capital.


You have no proof or even something suggesting that Udun was not the capital.


Therefore I, even though I do not have direct proof, still have Something whereas you have nothing.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 12, 2006
you seem to forget what you said.
you never said that it could have been a capital, you said it was a capital.
"Tolkien obviously thought that he did not need to put that it was Morgoths capital becuase it was obvious"
and you know...I don't care if you agree.
as long as Narg agrees is enough for me to consider me right.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: May 12, 2006

Well i meant to write that it was a strong possibility not that it was definately a capital.


If you so strongly agree with Narg on everything why did you continue to post if there was no chance of convincing you. Narg i doubt is the most experienced person on on the site, though he is definately a contender (Not saying I am but there are other here of possibly higher Tolkien caliber).



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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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Date: May 12, 2006

I must agree with TM. You cannot say what Tolkien was thinking without having talked to him on the matter, or unless he wrote it down somewhere (ie: his Letters, notes, etc.).


You say that there is no proof to disprove the theory that Utumno was the captial of Melkor's realm. I say that there is.


According to dictionary.com, the definition for captial (at least in the context that we are looking at) is:


a) A town or city that is the official seat of government in a political entity, such as a state or nation.
b) A city that is the centre of a specific activity or industry: the finanical capital of the world.


I am sure that those of you supporting the idea of Utumno will jump on these definitions, pointing fingers and saying that they prove your side. That is why I will delve a little deeper, and analyse them more in-depth.


So, first off...


a) A town or city that is the official seat of government in a political entity, such as a state or nation.


As I have said before on this topic, to use this definition, one must prove that Melkor had any form of formal government and that it was based at Utumno. To merely say that because Utumno was the biggest, strongest, etc. of Melkor's fortress does not prove this. And saying that there is no evidence saying that there was no form of government present is not enough, either. It's like saying that because Tolkien never wrote specifically that Frodo didn't have enormous horns growing out of his head, then Frodo must have had them. That kind of logic is flawed.


Also, even if you are to prove that Melkor had some form of government, you must then prove that the "official seat" is at Utumno, and not somewhere else like Angband or another, unnamed-by-Tolkien place.


And again saying that the seat of power must be at Utumno because it is the biggest stronghold does not prove it as true. If you want examples from outside of the U.S. of this, then take Canada for example. Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver are all larger than Canada's capital city, Ottawa. Yet you say that comparisons cannot be drawn between the "real world" and Tolkien's legendarium. How, then, can any comparisons be drawn at all? They are made using personal knowledge and experience, whether they come from real experiences or knowledge taken from the pages of Tolkien's works. Yes, Tolkien's stories are based in a fantasy setting, but that fantasy setting was made to be the real world many, many years ago and can thus relate to things within our own lives.


Now, for the second definition.


b) A city that is the centre of a specific activity or industry: the finanical capital of the world.


Now, I can see you jumping up and saying "Aha! Utumno was the centre of Melkor's power, and so must be the capital!". And to that I will respond as such...


Melkor's power was only centralized at Utumno before the awakening of the Elves. Shortly thereafter, it was laid to ruins and Melkor was dragged off to Valinor. How can Utumno be his capital if it's destroyed and Melkor never returns there afterwards? Because, as we know well, after killing the Two Trees and fleeing Valinor, Melkor takes up residence in Angband, and it's from there that he assails Beleriand.


So there you have it; those are my points concerning the matter.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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my point exactly.
and the examples are only randomly chosen, there are many other examples.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Firstly like said above Narguzir - this is a fantasy - real life issues don't have to apply like the government etc.


The Only reason Melkor sat in Angband and Thangorodrim on his return from Valinor is becuase Utumno was in ruins. Therefore I will go this far - Utumno was Morgoths capital before the War of Powers.



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Auta  i  lómë! 
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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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*sighs* Yet just because it is a fantasy setting does not mean that it cannot relate to our own world. If it didn't, then all the references that Tolkien made to things in our world like the different types of trees (birch, beech, willow, etc), animals (pigs, deer, bears, etc) or even the most basic things like mountains, trees, rivers, water, air even, would be completely out of place. You MUST be able to draw comparisons between books and your own life, or else nothing would make any sense. How much of this would you understand?


"The gragle snoopled across the blaggeldarg."


Yeah, pretty much nothing. How about this though?


"The dog ran across the river."


You understand the second one much more easily than the first because it makes references to real life things: the dog, running and the river. It's the same with Tolkien, or any writer. Just because they write in a fantasy setting does not mean that parallels cannot be drawn between their world and our own.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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I personally like the word blaggeldarg.
sounds very Rohirric.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: May 14, 2006

Yes well neither side is going to convince the other so truths?


I think we should get on with some other Lore questions now... Especially advanced Lore.



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Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!

Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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Date: May 14, 2006

*sigh* How can anything be discussed at all if you cannot to recognise when you are wrong and are too proud to consider anything but your own notions? I'm not saying this out of anger, but out of despair to be honest. Too many times have I seen cases like this, where someone(s) is unyielding because they are convinced that they are correct, no matter what, and even in the face of proof otherwise.


I myself have said that I would rethink my stance on this if evidence is shown that supports the theory that Utumno was the capital of Melkor's realm, and that subsequently the name of Udun/Utumno was then carried over to be the name of Melkor's entire realm. That has not been provided, so my stance stays the same.


Now, I have provided proof that Utumno was NOT Melkor's capital, nor was it the name of his realm. Why can people not accept this? It's right there in front of you. Look at it. Read it and tell me that it does not make sense. So then why do you, Glorfindel, and others, throw it aside?


You say that the modern definition of a capital cannot be applied to Tolkien's world because it is a fantasy world. Hmm, okay then, what's Minas Tirith? Oh, right, the capital of Gondor. And Michel Delving? Capital of the Shire. Edoras? Capital of the Mark. Menegroth? Capital of Doriath. And so why are all these places called capitals of their respective areas? Because the government is located there. The King/Steward at Minas Tirith, the Mayor at Michel Delving, the King of the Mark at Edoras, and Elu Thingol, King of Doriath, at Menegroth. So you can see, the definition of "capital" is perfectly applicible in both worlds, and has been done so by Tolkien. You cannot throw it aside.



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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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The only way you could convince me Narg, is if you provided a quote saying something to the effect of 'Morgoths realm had no capital' or 'Angband/Thangorodrim is the capital' or 'Utumno was never a capital'.


This way you could convince me otherwise, but I cannot convince you as i do not have a direct quote stating the Udun was the capital.



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Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!

Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 14, 2006
well, as Narg said, you aren't willing to accept the obvious fact that Utumno never was presented as a capial, so it never was intended to be a capital.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Can you quote that?


If not then its stalemate. If so then I am convinced.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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No I can't....and yes it is a stalemate so I give up...

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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Date: May 14, 2006

Like I pointed out before though, your logic in this is fatally flawed.


You say that you will not change your opinion unless I provide a quote that specifically states that Utumno was not the capital of Melkor's realm. So then must I also provide a quote that states that Sauron didn't have big, purple tentacles growing out of his body for you to believe that he didn't? No, I don't (or at least I sincerely hope I don't), because it's implied through the rest of the things that Tolkien wrote about Sauron.


This is the same situation. There is no quote that specifically states that Utumno was the capital of Melkor's realm because why write "Utumno was Melkor's biggest fortress, and a bunch of slaves worked there in the mines, but it wasn't the capital of Melkor's realm." That would just be out of place. The fact that Utumno was not the capital of Melkor's realm is implied, however, through the points that I have brought up, just like the fact that Sauron didn't have tentacles is implied.


I have one question though: Are you all going to adopt similar stances on all other topics on this forum? So that discussions come to a halt because people are too proud to accept the fact that they are wrong? If so, what is the point of these discussions?



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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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The only reason I adopted this tactic on  this thread was becuase I had a small amount of quote stating that it was at least the most likely candidate for a capital whereas you ccould provide nothing.


If a situation arises like this again where I have something and you have nothing then I will use that something. Also if I have nothing as well as you then of course I am not going to adopt the same tactic.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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tactic?
jesus christ, where are we getting to???
sounds like a real military battle.
tactics is the last thing you should use in a lore forum.
there is nothing to win, no battle strategy is needed just a little lore knowledge and some understanding.

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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Date: May 15, 2006

I have nothing in the way of direct quotes from Tolkien. You are correct in that. I do, however, have plenty of common sense knowledge to substantiate my theory.


You have one quote that says that Utumno was Melkor's biggest and strongest fortress. That means nothing. Military fortresses and the capitals of a realm are not equatable. I believe The Might used the example of Helm's Deep and Edoras earlier, showing that although Helm's Deep was by far the Riddermark's strongest fortress (having never been taken by an enemy), it is NOT the capital of the Mark.


Your quote shows that IF Melkor's realm was to have a capital (which I honestly think it did not, ever), then Utumno would be the most likely. However, that does not prove that it is the capital. You are speculating--it is only your own thoughts that those qualities would make Utumno Melkor's capital, and it's not stated anywhere to be true.



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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Thats all I have been saying! I said above that I originally meant to say that Utumno was more likely, not is, a capital than any other stronghold of Morgoth.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 15, 2006
again I remind you that was not always your opinion, and if you want I can quote from some of your earlier posts
only in the last time you have changed your position and said it was the most likely capital, which I can not say is wrong.

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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Date: May 15, 2006

My appologies then.


Before it's destruction, I would agree that Utumno was the most likely candidate to be the capital of Melkor's realm if indeed such a capital existed. After its destruction though, the capital would have logically been moved to Angband.



-- Edited by Narguzir at 11:02, 2006-05-15

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: May 15, 2006
mouthofsauron111 wrote:


Well i meant to write that it was a strong possibility not that it was definately a capital.

There The Might. I said here that I thought it was a strong possibility that Udun was the capital, not definate.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 15, 2006
well, you didn't always say that.
so, ok, I will say it was likely that it was a capital, but this is again speculation and I will not go into that thoery too much

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: May 15, 2006
Ok, thats all I was saying. Likely, not definately.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: May 17, 2006

Right I will give some quotes now about all the times Utumno is mentioned as the Fional retreat, the central fortress of morgoth:


All from the Silmarillion


"Now Melkor began the delving and building of a vast fortress, deep under Earth, beneath dark mountains where the beams of Illuin were cold and dim. That stronghold was named Utumno."


"But Melkor, trusting in the strength of Utumno and the might of his servants, came forth suddenly to war, and struck the first blow, ere the Valar were prepared; and he assailed the lights of Illuin and Ormal, and cast down their pillars and broke their lamps."


"But he came to Utumno ere Tulkas could overtake him; and there he lay hid."


"And in Utumno he gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption..."


"But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno..."


All the following from Morgoths ring


"Thence  they came with  war  against  Melkor;  but  he  had   grown  in   stature  and malice, so  that they could not  at that  time either  overcome him or  take  him captive,  and he  escaped from  their wrath  and built himself  a  mighty  fortress  in  the  North  of  Middle-earth,  anddelved   great   caverns  underground,   and  gathered   there  many lesser  powers  that  seeing  his  greatness  and  growing  strength were  now willing  to serve  him; and  the name  of that  strong and evil place was Utumno."          


        


     


"Then he returned to his dwelling in the North, and there built  for himself a  mighty  fortress,  and delved  great caverns  underground secure from  assault,  and  he  gathered  to him  many lesser  powers that seeing  his  greatness  and  growing strength  were now  willing to serve him; and the name of that evil fastness was Utumno."         


 


"Now  Melkor  began  the  delving  and  building  of  a vast fortress  deep  under  Earth,  beneath  dark  mountains  where the light  of  Illuin  was dim.(20) That  stronghold  was  named Utumno."


 


"In  AAm, on  the other  hand, Melkor built Utumno, or was  at least  far advanced  in the  work, before the Valar were  aware of  him, and  it was  from Utumno  that the blight  and  corruption  proceeded..."


 


"But  Melkor  dwelt  in  Utumno,  and he  slept not,  but watched, and laboured; and the evil  things that  he had  perverted walked abroad,  and  the  dark  and  slumbering  woods  were  haunted by monsters  and  shapes  of  dread.  And in  Utumno he  wrought the race  of  demons  whom  the  Elves after  named the  Balrogs. But these  came  not yet  from the  gates of  Utumno, because  of the watchfulness of Orome.    "  


 


           


"Melkor  met  the  onset of  the Valar  in the  North-west of Middle-earth, and all that region was much  broken. But  this first victory  of  the  hosts of  the West  was swift  and easy,  and the servants  of  Melkor  fled before  them to  Utumno."


 


         


"The  chief  of his  fortresses was  at Utumno  in the  North of Middle-earth;  but  he  made  also  a  fortress  and   armoury  not far  from  the  northwestern  shores  of  the  Sea,  to  resist  any assault   from   Aman.   This   was    called   Angband    and   was commanded by Sauron, lieutenant of Melkor."                          


This quote clearly say ' Chief Fortress'.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 17, 2006
firstly happy to see you are using the quotes.

secondly...should I give you all the quotes where the Hornburg is presented as Rohan's last retreat and biggest fortress, though it is not a capital?
I mean, the quotes are good but they prove nothing more

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