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Topic: Realm of Morgoth

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: Mar 10, 2006
Realm of Morgoth

I know that Morgoths realm consisted of Angband and Thangorodrim but were they both classified into the realm of Udun or were they seperate?

-- Edited by Glorfindel1235 at 16:32, 2006-03-15

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Yeah I am pretty sure both Thangorodrim and angband are just massive fortresses within the realm of Udun itself.

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Valar
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Angband and Utumno are two different things. Utumno/Udûn are same thing and Angband was later and lesser fortress of Morgoth's. If i dont remember totally wrong here, Thangorodrim was outer "defence" of Angband. Thangorodrim (or three peaks as those are called) located above Angband's gates. 

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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As far as i can recall the actual overall realm of Morgoth was Udun and he had a western Fortress Angband to guard himself from the Valar in Aman should they decide to attack. The Eastern side of Udun was not used I think for it was colder and inhospitable. That is about as much as I can find in the books.

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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Udûn is not Morgoth's entire realm. It is merely the Sindarin name for his fortress of Utumno.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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But if you were to class Morgoths realm you would say Udun/Utumno as a whole becuase it is not one single fortress like Angband or Thangorodrim, it is a realm with small fortifications within it.

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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No. Utumno was a single, if expansive fortress. Just like Angband, but greater.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Then I am afraid are views differ Narguzir. Have you done the first quiz in the knowledge centre? If so then there is a question saying 'What is the name of the realm of Morgoth?' What did you put to that answer?

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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I put Utumno. Not because I knew it was correct, however, since none of them were correct, but because I thought that that was what The One (or whoever does all the marking) would count as correct.


If you can prove to me, using textual evidence, that Utumno/Udûn was the name for all of Morgoth's realm then I will concede defeat and change my views. The fact is though that I have never come across anything that supports that idea, and Utumno/Udûn is always refered to as a single fortress. But you may try.


If you do try and locate something in the books that refers to Utumno/Udûn as a realm instead of a fortress and fail to do so, I do hope at least that you will be humble enough to admit that you were wrong. Too many times have I seen people who are presented with fact after fact after fact and thrown them to the wind when they've had nothing to support their theory. Unfortunately, it's truly a saddening sight.



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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Give me a few days and I will see what I can find.


So basically your saying that the answer to that question in the knowledge centre is wrong???



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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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I am sure he is not suggesting that Glorfindel1235 as those tests are made to a very high standard. I think what he is saying is that although Utumno is not the realm of Morgoth, it is its captital so therefore you may call it realm of Morgoth.

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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mouthofsauron -- How does being the capitol of a region make it the name of the region? If that were the case, why isn't Gondor called Minas Tirith? And Angmar not called Carn Dum? And Arnor not called Annuminas/Fornost (depending on the time period)? And Valinor not called Valmar?


No, Utumno/Udun was one fortress, not an entire realm.



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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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You just made a critical mistake Narguzir. The problems with your comparison realms is that they all have a name for there entire realm. Morgoths realm does not have a name for it so it is logical that some may class its captital as the realm. If Gongor was not called Gondor and did not have a name, it would follow, that either a name would be made up or they would call it by its captital.


So once again Morgoths realm could be classed as Utumno/Udun.



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Valar
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'Now Melkor began the delving and building of a vast fortress deep under Earth, beneath dark mountains where the light of Illuin was dim.(20) That stronghold was named Utumno.'Morgoth's Ring.


'But Melkor dwelt in Utumno, and he slept not, but watched, and laboured; and the evil things that he had perverted walked abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread. And in Utumno he wrought the race of demons whom the Elves after named the Balrogs. But these came not yet from the gates of Utumno, because of the watchfulness of Orome.' Motgoth's Ring.


'At first he would depart when the long day of summer came; but after a time, becoming bolder again, and desiring a dwelling place of his own, he began the delving underground of his great fortress in the far North, which was afterwards named Utumno (or Udun).*Morgoth's Ring


'Melkor bred many other monsters of divers shapes and kinds that long troubled the world; and his realm spread now ever southward over the Middle-earth.'MR


'Slow was their going by twilight or by night in the pathless, wilds, and the fell winter came down swiftly from the realm of Morgoth.'Unfinished Tales.


'Then shall we sit here and rot?" said Tuor. "For such doubt will remain while the realm of Morgoth endures. Come! Under the shadow of the cloak of Ulmo we must go forward.' Unfinished Tales.


Firstly, i am taking no sides here but this began to interest me so much that i did some searching of my own.And these quotes are some of those what i did found. Some quotes do clearly say that Utumno and Udun was just the fortress and then these two last quotes shows that people did refer to Morgoth's realm with just realm. There is no realm of Udun or Utumno, just the Realm of Morgoth. Or Morgoth's Realm.



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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Forgive me Lord Tulkas of the high order of the Ainur but as you see I have conceded to the point where Udun was a Fortress. But I hold on what mouthofsauron said. As there is no name for the fortress of Morgoth it would be well accepted that the capital, Utumno, could be classified as the realm even though it is not if you see what I mean.

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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mouthofsauron111 wrote:


Morgoths realm does not have a name for it


Exactly.



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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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mouthofsauron111 also wrote that it is logical to call that realm therefore by its capital.

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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Alright, first off, Utumno/Udûn was not the captial of any realm because, to have a capital, one must first have a government of some sort - be it a monarchy, democracy or dictatorship. The "capital" is where this governing body is held and makes decisions. Provide me with any evidence that



a) The realm of Morgoth had a government, and
b) Utumno was considered the capital of Morgoth's realm


and then I shall continue.


And to say that an unnamed realm takes on the name of its capital is contradictory to what you're saying, since then it would HAVE a name, and not be an unnamed realm. The fact that it doesn't have a name should be enough. You yourself, mouthofsauron, say


"Morgoths realm does not have a name for it so it is logical that some may class its captital as the realm."


You admit that it doesn't have a name. Right there. Read your own writing. You don't say that it's name is Udûn or Utumno, you say that it is unnamed and that the name of ONE fortress - the realm's so-called "capital" - is Udûn/Utumno.



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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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This is typical LOTRplaza style argument from yourself Narguzir.


Firstly I would like to remind you that the whole thing is a fantasy. Therefore a capital can be called a capital becuase they have an annual egg and spoon race if the writer says so. So just becuase it does not have a government etc held in that fortress it does not mean it isn't a capital.


Secondly, Udun was by far the largest and greatest fortress of Morgoth, and that was his final retreat stronghold. He had fortresses - Angband and Thangorodrim in the west to guard his ultimate fortress, from The Valar should they attack, which was Utumno. I think you will find that you had a make-shift government assembled, Morgoth as its leader with servants such as Sauron, Gothmog and Ancalogan/Glaurung as its by-leaders.


Udun was the Capital of Morgoths realm, which DID NOT have a name, admittedly, then what to call it? I think Udun/Utumno would be most appropriate as it was its capital.


Simple as.



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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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mouthofsauron, I personally see no problems with the manner in which Narg is presenting his argument.  However, here are my views on the entire debate.


1. Udun/Utumno is no more than a fortress of Morgoth (textually backed)
2. The realm of Morgoth in generally is never given a specific name.  It is only referred to as Morgoth's realm, or a variant (again textually backed)


I see one potential flaw in your argument in the case for Udun/Utumno as the name of Morgoth's realm:  "Therefore a capital can be called a capital becuase they have an annual egg and spoon race if the writer says so."  The problem with this is that the writer never did say so, referring to the realm as just that: an unnamed realm.



-- Edited by Elendil the Tall at 17:55, 2006-04-01

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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mouthofsauron111 wrote:


Therefore a capital can be called a capital becuase they have an annual egg and spoon race if the writer says so.


This is EXACTLY why I've said that if you can find any textual evidence to support your theories that Utumno/Udûn was either the capital of Morgoth's realm or that his realm took on the name of this "capital" then I will admit that I was wrong and agree with you.


I am confident that none exist, however, thus making your point moot.



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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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I cannot give you a quote saying that it was its capital, but neither can you give me a quote stating it is not.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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here starts the speculation again
If there is no quote saying that Udun was a capital, there is no need to speculate it might have been.
As long as you don't know it was a capital, you have to assume it wasn't.
we are told it was his fortress, if Tolkien would have considered it a capital, I am sure he would have said it.
And actually, you don't need a quote saying that Udun wasn't a capital. As long as you have no quote saying it was it is enough proof.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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We are told it was Morgoths biggest and greatest fortress, therefore one could assume it being Morgoth's capital without needing direct quotation.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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one could indeed assume, but still one shouldn't assume.
One simple example.
the Hornburg is by far Rohan's greatest and biggest fortress, but still it is not the capital.
this the quickest example I could think of, but there are others as well, and not only in ME, but also in real life.
For example a capital like Canberra in Australia or Washington DC in the US, which are by far not the biggest cities, but are still capitals.
Frankly, I doubt that Melkor did have a capital in the real sense of the word. He had all he needed - a fortress from where he could attack his enemies and where he could retreat in time of need.


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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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*applauds* Thank you TM, that's exactly what I was about to say.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Are you sure the Hornberg is the biggest? The strongest, and most manned but is it bigger?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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of course it was bigger. at least in size and strength and power.
it is clear that Edoras had more inhabitants.
Still, you shouldn't necessarily analyse this, it is only a quick example. There are many others in the whole world of cities that were smaller, less powerfull, but still capitals.

and wow...
I never thought I'd gonna get any applause from you Narg...

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Could you name some other instances of the smaller cities being the capitals in Middle-earth then 'The Might' perhaps being textually backed?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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well...if I think about it yes I can
Minas Anor, Minas ithil and Osgiliath in the very beginning of Gondor.
Osgiliath was for a while the capital, though Minas Anor was the stronger city as it was defence tower.
later Minas Anor became summer residence and later capital.

and as I said, don't necessarily take it so importantly.
The idea is not if there were other examples, but that you can't simply say that Udun was the capital just cause it was the biggest city.

listen, look at what Narg said if again you don't want to believe me.


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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Not just the Biggest, but the greatest and most central and Melkors final retreat.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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and what are you trying to say with that?
does it mean you can show that it was a capital?
and do you have any proof?

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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No, I think you will find Glorfindel is trying to say that Utumno was the biggest, greatest and final retreat of Melkor... Also, I doubt Minas Arnor was bigger than Osigiliath in so much as how much land it covered. More elaborate by far and much taller was Minas Arnor but not as far spreading as Osgiliath.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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well if that is what he is trying to say then I must agree, but not with the statement it was a capital.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Well these three things make it more of a capital than any other Strongholds of Morgoth.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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as I said...what about New York and Washington Dc for example since I think you are also an American?

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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No, I am from the Uk and don't admire Americans at all.


As to your example it is void immediately becuase we are talking about Fantasy not real life. If you can see fit to make comparisons between them then you could say if Mt Everest and K2 were to be destroyed then the world would split into three continents, like it did with the Pillars of Light.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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I give up as there is no point if you don't wish to understand what I mean.
maybe you'll understand if Narg explains it
all I wanted to say is that if a city is bigger and stronger it doesn't immediately mean it is a capital.
as for your remark about Americans I think you shouldn't say that so quickly because the person that facilitated you to post here, The One himself, and many other good members come from America.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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I don't beleive The One comes from America. This is a British site. You will see in some profiles, such as mine that United Kingdom is the country where they come from. Ask him if you don't beleive me.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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sorry
the list all members thing confused me
there I see an american flag next to your name
and next to The One's.

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