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Topic: Why leave Middle-earth?

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Elf of Rivendell - Rank 2
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Posts: 43
Date: Mar 9, 2006
Why leave Middle-earth?

Why did the Elves have to leave ME at the end of the third age. Why could they not just stay and fight Sauron and untie Elf, Dwarf and man? Seems a bit traitorous to me, to just leave all the other peoples of middle-earth to sort it all out.

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So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you.
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Posts: 2372
Date: Mar 9, 2006
The time of the elves was over. They had to leave middle-earth to its fate for the age of men was come. They did offer some help over the months of the war of the ring. but most were fleeing to the grey havens.

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Valar
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Posts: 120
Date: Mar 16, 2006
mouthofsauron111 has a point there. The time of elves was over and it was time for men to come. And they(most of them) did leave before War of the Ring or during it. They didn't want to see the destruction that Sauron brought and for partly saving themselves.

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I am Tulkas the Valiant who laughs ever in the face of Good or Evil.
Chief Maiar
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Posts: 375
Date: Mar 18, 2006
To be fair where would you rather live, Middle-Earth with wars and death around or the Undying lands with the Holy beings. One also should consider that the firstborn were destined to live with the Valar anyhow. There is also the thing that most of the elves were many moons older than any human alive and most likely had seen wars and death (something the firstborn were not meant to do...die I mean.) it's understandable that they'd go.

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...But it was so that from Nienna he learned pity and patience.

Elf of Beleriand - Rank 2
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Posts: 61
Date: Mar 22, 2006

The Secondborn betrayed each other and the Elves in such manners that the departure of the Elves after the war had ended was far from reprehensive.


 


If nothing, Galadriel's father waits for her in the Undying lands. And Elves were always connected to preservation, while the Men were granted the gift of evolution.



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[under construction]

Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Posts: 3118
Date: Apr 13, 2006
I would like to add that the power of the three rings was now over, considering the fact that One ring was destroyed, so all the power in the kingdoms which was until then maintained with the help of the rings was lost, and the elves had lost much power. And as others pointed out it was time to let someone else have the power in ME.

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Valar
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Posts: 148
Date: Apr 15, 2006
Valinor was the place they were meant to be, and longed for deep down. I think I've heard that if elves stayed in Middle Earth for an extremely long time, they could start to fade, like a ring-bearer would if they kept the ring for a huge period of time. However, I can not precisely remember where I heard that, and can't support it with material atm.

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I am Yavanna, Giver of Fruits.
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Posts: 3118
Date: Apr 15, 2006
Not really, the fading of the Elves had more to do with the fact that their power wa now over. If Sauron had not appeared and created the One Ring there would have been no reason why the Eleves should have faded. But now that the power of the Three Rings was over, the Elves started to lose their power and influence and of course living in Valinor was a much more tempting alternative.

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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Posts: 87
Date: Apr 16, 2006

For the fading of the Elves in both Middle-Earth and Aman:


"On earth the Quendi suffered no sickness, and the health of their bodies was supported by the might of the longeval fear. But their bodies, being of the stuff of Arda, were nonetheless not so enduring as their spirits; for the longevity of the Quendi was derived primarily from their fear, whose nature or 'doom' was to abide in Arda until its end. Therefore, after the vitality of the hroa was expended in achieving full growth, it began to weaken or grow weary. Very slowly indeed, but to all the Quendi perceptibly. For a while it would be fortified and maintained by its indwelling fa, and then its vitality would begin to ebb, and its desire for physical life and joy in it would pass ever more swiftly away. Then an Elf would begin (as they say now, for these things did not fully appear in the Elder Days) to 'fade', until the fa as it were consumed the hra until it remained only in the love and memory of the spirit that had inhabited it.


But in Aman, since its blessing descended upon the hrar of the Eldar, as upon all other bodies, the hrar aged only apace with the far, and the Eldar that remained in the Blessed Realm endured in full maturity and in undimmed power of body and spirit conjoined for ages beyond our mortal comprehension." (The Silmarillion Enlarged, Aman)


This passage quite clearly indicates the accelerated fading of the Eldar in ME, especially in relation to the fading that would still occur in Aman.



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Valar
Status: Offline
Posts: 148
Date: Apr 16, 2006
Oh, well there you go, thank you Elendil the Tall, I can't remember reading that passage, now I'm a little wiser : )

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I am Yavanna, Giver of Fruits.
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Posts: 3118
Date: Apr 16, 2006
me neither, I think that Enlarged thing might be something else...

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Valar
Status: Offline
Posts: 140
Date: Apr 27, 2006

Also, some of the Elves had to win their way back to Aman.  Especially, Galadriel, who was one of the Noldor rebels, that left Aman to seek a kingdom of her own to rule in Middle-earth.  However, when she rejected the Ring's temptations and "passed the test," she proved herself worthy to return back to Aman.


I also disagree with thinking that the Elves "betrayed" and ran from Middle-earth, basically leaving humans to deal with the mess.  They were helpful in any way possible, but since they were in decline and many were leaving, they weren't as able to help as much.  But, Elrond and Rivendell remained to be a place where people went to seek counsel and advice up until he left.  Lorien and Mirkwood would fight of invasions from Sauron during this time, and Elrond had sent his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, with Aragorn.  So, eventhough if they weren't as involved as say in the Last Alliance, that was simply because there weren't as many Elves around, and many were leaving.  Though, I don't think they betrayed Men to their own fate, they helped out in whatever ways they could.



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I am Lrien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
Elf of Beleriand - Rank 2
Status: Offline
Posts: 32
Date: Apr 27, 2006

Errr, I don't think Galadriel left Aman with the intention of finding a kingdom of her own. She travelled with her four brothers and the other Noldor as they left Aman for Middle Earth, to recover the Silmarils from Melkor. After the War of Wrath, she remained in Middle Earth with Celeborn, and it was not until the Third Age she took up rule in Lorien.


She was allowed to return to Aman at the end of the Third Age for both rejecting the ring when it was offered and her roles in the War of the Ring, in resisting the orc assaults on the Golden Wood and in casting down Dol Goldur.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Posts: 3118
Date: Apr 27, 2006
*takes out quote book (again)*
"but Galadriel, the only woman of the Noldor to stand that day tall and valiant among the contending princes, was eager to be gone. No oaths she swore, but the words of Fanor concerning Middle-earth had kindled in her heart, for she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm at her own will."
I think it is not hard to see she did want a realm of her own.

However, I doubt that only the fact she resisted the Ring and that she cast down Dol Guldur got her the right to return. I think it was simply the fact that she was now a lot wiser, and she proved by ruling Lorien, that she was worthy of that honor.

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Posts: 619
Date: Aug 8, 2006
This is actually a great question.

The Noldor leaving Middle-Earth makes perfect sense. After thousands of years of exile, they wanted to go back home. As for some of the other branches of the Elves, it makes little to no sense at all. Since some of the Elves had not made the initial voyage to Aman I cannot fathom why they would suddenly all decide that it was now time to leave the world at the end of the Third Age. This is especially true of the Elves that settled in Greenwood the Great.

As far as I can tell the fate of the Elves has always been to cross the western sea when they grow weary of the world, so it is just extremely odd that they would all grow weary at once and decide to leave.

It's also odd since their lives are bound to the world. You can look at the thread about Elven immortality for that reference.

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Posts: 2161
Date: Aug 8, 2006

Perhaps the Elves who had never been to the Undying lands now saw there oppotunity available as all the others were leaving also. I think all Elves knew that it was the time of dominion for Men so it makes sense.



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Utlie'n aur! Aiya Eldali ar Atanatri, utlie'n aur!
Auta i lm!
Aur entuluva!

Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Posts: 3118
Date: Aug 8, 2006
it is also interesting to see Legolas' reaction after seeing sea-birds at Pelargir and seeing with his eyes the sea from afar. as he says, the thought of the sea never left his mind after this moment, so even Silvan Elves that had never seen the sea before, longed to go home.

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
Status: Offline
Posts: 619
Date: Aug 8, 2006
I will agree that the Elves that had never seen Aman were probably intrigued/enamoured with the histories and tales of the Noldor and some of the Teleri, and would have wanted to see the place where they were going to go anyway when they were weary of the world.

As for this longing to go home theory, with the exception of the Noldor and the Teleri, they were already home.

Perhaps those that were in Lothlorien and Rivendell, who had experienced the power of the rings were more most likely to desire to leave the world since they had the closest experience to Aman the Elves could create in Middle-Earth.





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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
Status: Offline
Posts: 3118
Date: Aug 8, 2006
and also because they were ruled by Noldor
as is told in the Tale of Galadriel and Celeborn, the Silvan Elves accepted the Noldor as their rulers
one exception however is the woodland realm of Thranduil, who was ruled by Silvan Elves, and here there were no Calaquendi...so Legolas was a special case

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