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Topic: Melkor vs. Eru

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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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Posts: 18
Date: May 9, 2013
Melkor vs. Eru

I have read The Silmarillion front to back two times in the past week and still have not come to the conclusion so maybe you could help me out with your opinions. When reading of Eru Illuvator creating the Valar in theAiulendale, I noticed that the greatest and first of the Valar he created was Melkor. Now being that this was his first creation of "living" things he would have had no previous knowledge of what to create so logically he would make his first creation in likeness to himself more than his further creations (when Kevin Flynn creates Clu). Now this is where it gets tricky, Melkor we would assume would have all knowledge and "power" as Eru would. So the question I have is what stopped him from challenging Eru? Thank you for reading.

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"Hail Earendil, brightest of angels, sent over Middle-earth to men!"
Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
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Date: May 10, 2013
I like this!


My opinion (just shooting from the hip here) is that Eru gave each Valar a glimpse of his own mind through the songs that he taught them. Such as elements, glory, wrath and other intangible traits of the living, free will, love, etc. But to say that Illuvatar had imparted all of his sovereign knowledge is kind of a stretch. Re-read the section in the beginning of the Silmarillion that states about Eru raising his hand a total of three times. Each time he did he arrested the turmoil that was being created.

He had tremendous power that thwarted all things plus don't forget the most memorable quote:

I don't have the quote here in front of me but trust me, its impressive...I'll paraphrase.

'Remember that there is nothing that you can create for good or ill that does not have its utmost beginnings in me," says Illuvatar when he stops the rebellious discordance of Melkor in the beginning....
Maybe one of our friends could elaborate. I am not with my materials at the moment but the topic was too tempting to pass up....

Nice one earendilthegreat!

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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Posts: 2960
Date: May 10, 2013

earendilthegreat and Jaidoprism7,

Sometimes when things are falling apart they may actually be falling in place!

I believe your answer as why Melkor didn't do evil deeds to Eru was because his deeds were part of Eru's grand plan and not independent from it.

"Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

Then the Ainur were afraid, and they did not yet comprehend the words that were said to them; and Melkor was filled with shame, of which came secret anger. But Ilúvatar arose in splendour, and he went forth from the fair regions that he had made for the Ainur; and the Ainur followed him.

But when they were come into the Void, Ilúvatar said to them: 'Behold your Music!' And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; arid they saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but was not of it. And as they looked and wondered this World began to unfold its history, and it seemed to them that it lived and grew. And when the Ainur had gazed for a while and were silent, Ilúvatar said again: 'Behold your Music! This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added. And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory."
(The Silmarillion, Ainulindale: "The Music of the Ainur", pg 17)

Does it make sense?



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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit
Called or uncalled, God is present

Tom Bombadil
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Posts: 1886
Date: May 10, 2013
I agree with bear. I also thought of that when I read the Sil the first time. Nothing happened that wasn't planned by Iluvatar first. Every design had its being in Him. Well done Bear

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Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow!
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Slaves of udun
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Date: Sep 18, 2013

I don't know if this is a Biblical reference or something from a philosopher, but anyway, this just makes me think of the quote, "No servant can be greater than his master."  Iluvatar created something with his thought, he didn't "splice" himself to make a co-equal.



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"And Morgoth came."

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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Posts: 383
Date: Sep 18, 2013
I know I mentioned it in another similar thread, but if Iluvatar knows everything and is a source of everything (and Melkor is no co-equal to him and cannot go beyond the design - so things go as expected), why did he weep at some point?

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Lórellinë

Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Date: Sep 19, 2013

I guess I should just post what I posted before ...But let us try a different slant ...

Taken from the journals of two officers on opposite sides the day before the Allies invasion of Normandy June 6th,1944... "sometimes I wonder whose side God is on!"  (Lt. Col. Benjamin Vandervoort and Field Marshal Walter Model)

Evil often (but not always) depends on perspective. And the ultimate folly is pretending to know the mind of God!  Comparing Melkor to Eru is like comparing a puppy to his master ... who scoops up the poop?  The master does ... and Melkor's poop in The Silmarillion, Ainulindale: ~ "The Music of the Ainur", turns out to be the fertilizer for heroism, inter-racial brotherhood, loyalty,deep and powerful love, courage, virtues of selflessness, perseverance, compassion for the weak and innocent, the noble characteristics of the warrior, and a dozen other virtues.
Not to be misunderstood certainly one must focus on their own path towards righteousness, but when we see another on a different path than ours it does not mean they are bound for a different destination.

As for Teralectus quote "No servant can be greater than his master." the quote is in the context of Jesus humbly washing the feet of his disciples ...
" ...12 So when He had washed their feet, and taken His garments and reclined at the table again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you?

13"You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am."

14 "If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet ...

15 "For I gave you an example that you also should do as I did to you."

16"Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.

17"If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them." ~ John 13:12 - 17 (NIV)

With the lesson being one of humility ... not thinking less of ones self but thinking of one's self less. So the reference might not be exactly in the context Teralectus meant it to be.
I certainly may have misunderstood ... here are a few different versions of the quote ;

 New International Version
"Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him." ~ John 13:16
New Living Translation
"I tell you the truth, slaves are not greater than their master. Nor is the messenger more important thanthe one who sends the message". ~ John 13:16
English Standard Version
"Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him " ~ John 13:16
New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him." ~ John 13:16
King James Bible
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him." ~ John 13:16
International Standard Version
'Truly, I tell all of you emphatically, a servant isn't greater than his master, and a messenger isn't greater than the one who sent him." ~ John 13:16
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
"Timeless truth I speak to you: there is no servant greater than his master and no apostle is greater than he who sent him." ~John 13:16

Teralectus and Lorelline you have both stepped into the glorious minefield of an Almighty God vs. Satan, Odin vs Loki, Zeus vs Hades, and every other archetypal dichotomous battle for a supreme theocracy ...

This was an archetypal battle that Tolkien I believed wanted to side step  ... I think he wanted it to be more of a Job (man and elf) vs Satan (Melkor and his Maiar allies) With Eru letting the evil of Melkor bring out the "GOOD" ... notice the big letters ...  in Elves and Men.  And with the ultimate triumph being the manifestation of the entire Ainulindale.
This is much like C.G. Jung's piece called "
Answer to Job" ~ that addresses the moral, mythological and psychological implications of the Book of Job. It was first published in English in 1954. So Tolkien with his interests in mythology would definitely been familiar with it. And more importantly the basic thesis of the book is that as well as having a good side, God also has a fourth side - the evil face of God. (a shadow of the divine). Hence there was no dichotomous ultimate battle but rather expressions of "God's will" that were not favorable to man. Tolkien seems to have developed that thought as we, the reader, follow the evolution Melkor to Morgoth.
(please look at this a supplemental to my post of May 10th, 2013)



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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit
Called or uncalled, God is present

Tom Bombadil
Status: Offline
Posts: 1886
Date: Nov 22, 2013
The Master has spoken. Awesome Bear!

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Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!
Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow!
Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 18
Date: Feb 20, 2014
Quite eloquent my friend.

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