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Topic: Gandalf the Old Fool?

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Tower Guard of Minas Tirith - Rank 4
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Posts: 377
Date: Apr 12, 2012
RE: Gandalf the Old Fool?

See, that right there. How can you tell me that's not ment to be a shot at my inteligence??

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But no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom,nor devil's art nor beast-strength, could overthrow Huan of Valinor;
Rohan Peasant - Rank 2
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Posts: 34
Date: Apr 12, 2012
I am remaining very cordial Huan. I'm not taking any sort of shot at your intelligence. I can only speculate on the reasons (maybe you just skimmed over the thread, maybe you were thinking of a different topic, maybe you are infatuated with Bear.....I don't know), but what I do know is that you are jumping to conclusions. If you thoroughly read the thread, you will see Bear's posts, while admirable for their content, do not address the topic...at all.

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Tower Guard of Minas Tirith - Rank 4
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Date: Apr 12, 2012
Well... I can't imagine making this any clearer. Because everyone who has posted has let you know, plain as day, the facts of the matter. Of which you have ignored and kept your theory. But hey, to each their own I guess.

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But no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom,nor devil's art nor beast-strength, could overthrow Huan of Valinor;
Rohan Peasant - Rank 2
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Posts: 34
Date: Apr 12, 2012
Now you're delusional. I acknowledge every point brought up, but because I provide rebuttals for them somehow that means I'm ignoring them. Yeah, okay. Please, read the thread. You will see it took me several posts to finally hammer a point home to Bear. Just read the whole thread. It isn't wise to jump into a conversation without first listening. Read the thread, perhaps reflect on it, then post.

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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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Date: Mar 2, 2013

I don't know of any evidence that there were Uruks in Moria. If you study the Orcs dialogue in LOTR, there are three factions. Those from the "Mines" (Moria), those of the White Hand and those from across the Anduin and subject to the Nazgul. The first mentioned are shorter than the rest and don't have any Uruks, they can't stand sunlight as well as the others. The first two factions appear to be hostile and suspicious towards the Nazgul and "Lugburz" (Barad-dur). As a former lieutenant of Morgoth, the Balrog might well have created an orc army of his own independently of Sauron. I seem to recall also both Gandalf and Aragorn passing through Moria before without spotting the Balrog, and probably then assuming the threat was not active anymore. Now the Balrog may have somehow divined Sauron's interest in the fellowship (such as the wolf attack and the lake creature) and taken an interest of its own.







-- Edited by Mandos on Saturday 2nd of March 2013 08:12:21 AM

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Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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Date: Mar 3, 2013

Mandos, evidence for Uruks in Moria appears before the chapter you are referencing. As noted in the thread, in the Mines of Moria we have a reference to black Uruks (of Mordor).

I recall this especially as the draft texts here are interesting with respect to the question of orcs and goblins: in the drafts 'real orcs' [at first compared to goblins] became 'veritable orcs'... which Tolkien then revised to 'black orcs'... and ultimately JRRT revised this, publishing 'black Uruks' here.



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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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Date: Mar 3, 2013
Galin wrote:

Mandos, evidence for Uruks in Moria appears before the chapter you are referencing. As noted in the thread, in the Mines of Moria we have a reference to black Uruks (of Mordor).

I recall this especially as the draft texts here are interesting with respect to the question of orcs and goblins: in the drafts 'real orcs' [at first compared to goblins] became 'veritable orcs'... which Tolkien then revised to 'black orcs'... and ultimately JRRT revised this, publishing 'black Uruks' here.


 I did not find it, please provide page number. Also to my knowledge only Saruman created Uruk-Hai. For them to be specifically "of Mordor" the would need (a readily identifiable) red eye on the shield.



-- Edited by Mandos on Sunday 3rd of March 2013 08:08:26 PM

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: Mar 4, 2013
Mandos wrote:

 I did not find it, please provide page number. Also to my knowledge only Saruman created Uruk-Hai. For them to be specifically "of Mordor" the would need (a readily identifiable) red eye on the shield.


 Saruman created the 'Uruk-hai' but Uruks were made by Sauron. I'm not sure if Saruman actually did anything unique or whether he expanded on what Sauron had already done in the past.



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Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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Posts: 562
Date: Mar 5, 2013

Mandos, I'm not sure page numbers will help as my handy volume is a one volume paperback, but anyway the uruks are noted just before the fight in the Chamber of Mazarbul. I think the huge orc that gets in was surely one of these uruks.

 

I'm not positive that Saruman created the Uruk-hai, but he certainly had some in his service. To my mind Uruk-hai 'Orc-folk' and Uruks are the same thing, although it could be that Saruman's Uruks were better trained under Saruman (Sauron had numbers, Saruman possibly trained his lads better).



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Thorin Oakenshield - Rank 6
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Date: Mar 6, 2013
Long time no see Galin!

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Rohirrim of Edoras - Rank 4
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Date: Mar 24, 2013
I love a passionate thread and this one is definitely that. I don't have my book in front of me but my memory is throwing a clip from the movie where Saruman is saying that Gandalf fears to go through the mines because of what the dwarves' greed has awakened. Does this happen at all in the book? It would be a thought from Orthanc, I'm sure.

In the questioning of Gandalf's or the White Council's perceptions, plans or judgement calls I think that the overlooking of a balrog would be, and was, grievous. We will all remember that Gandalf gives his life in penance for the oversight or whatever one would call it. Saruman is running smoke and mirrors. Lorien is in the midst of impending siege. Imladris is on the verge of evacuation. Gandalf has discovered that the Necromancer is, indeed, Sauron himself. I think all the irons are in the fire. Perhaps the Numenorian blood left in Aragorn gives him some premonishon of evil in the mines. As I said, I don't have my book infront of me. To argue an idea of the work being written differntly is futile at best. The words were published. It was a fluid work in progress until the death of the author and now is unchangeable. Set in stone. The architecht is gone. The last flesh on the beast.

So I would say that Bard would have placed more precidence on the balrog of Moria (Durin's Bane) had Bard written the books. Or, would have, at least given more detail of thought process/dismisal of subject. I would have fleshed out Beorn more and told an epic tale of love, loss, tresspass, reprisal and triumph that would rival the story of Luthian and Beren!

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Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
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Date: Mar 24, 2013
It was written that Gandalf and Aragorn had some 'long debate' and when the pass of Caradhras had defeated the fellowship it was Gandalf who suggested the path through 'the long dark of Moria.' and Aragorn was dead-set against it!
Both Aragorn and Gandalf knew of the Balrog's presence in the mine for it was documented for centuries in the account of the Battle of Azanűlbizar. It is said that after Dain had slain Azog before the eastern gate to Khazhad Dum that 'he perceived' the Balrog inside the mine. I always hoped that Dain had actually seen the creature but since 'perceived' is the word Tolkien chose, I can only assume that as Dain stared into the gate he either heard, saw, or was reminded by the darkness that the Balrog was there and must have never successfully been vanquished....semantics really!

I think from that time on...it was common knowledge that the Balrog was awake and no where else but Moria's mines...

I also read that after the War of Wrath that the Valar pronounced a doom upon the escaped Balrogs in which they could never walk in the open, freely.....but I can't back that up! LOL.

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